More Than-Bibbja?
mill ThaddeusQ. Kif inti tispjega Rivelazzjoni 22:18-29 (KJV) flimkien biż-żieda tal-Ktieb ta 'Mormon (u oħrajn) għall-Iskrittura Mqaddsa?
I jistgħu jimmaniġġjaw versi 18-21, iżda 22-29 huma lil hinn lili. I imħabba biex tisma X'taħseb dawk.
Kapitolu 22 ta 'Rivelazzjoni huwa l-kapitolu finali tal-Testment il-Ġdid, versi 18-29 (KJV) huma murija hawn taħt:
18 Għall I jixhdu unto kull raġel li heareth-kliem tal-profezija ta 'dan il-ktieb, Jekk kull bniedem għandha żżid unto dawn l-affarijiet, Alla għandha żżid unto lilu l-pesti li huma miktuba f'dan il-ktieb:
19 U jekk xi bniedem għandhom jieħdu l bogħod mill-kliem tal-ktieb ta 'din profezija, Alla għandu jieħu bogħod parti tiegħu barra mill-ktieb tal-ħajja, u barra mill-belt qaddisa, u mill-affarijiet li huma miktuba f'dan il-ktieb.
L-implikazzjoni hija li peress li dawn il-versi mill-qrib l-Bibbja kif nafuha llum, Alla mhux se jippermettu profeziji kwalunkwe aktar. Ir-risposta tiegħi għal dan ikun serje twila ta 'kwotazzjonijiet minn diskors mogħti reċentement mill-Appostlu, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, imma jien naħseb li jkun aktar sensibbli għalik biex taqraha jew jisimgħu lilha jew isegwu din (hawn taħt) innifsek .
Mhux dan biss, iżda huwa pjuttost ovvju li l-Bibbja ma jeżistux sakemm mijiet ta 'snin wara dawn il-kliem kienu bil-miktub. Għalhekk, xi ħaġa li daħal wara l-rivelazzjoni fuq il-gżira ta 'Patmos waslet kienu jkunu nulli u bla effett. Dan jinkludi parti tajba tal-Testment il-Ġdid, minn dak li nifhem.
Galatin 1:6-9.
Imbagħad taħseb dawn pesti jew curses tkun fis-seħħ jekk xi ħadd miżjud jew ħa l bogħod mill-ktieb ta 'Rivelazzjoni waħda speċifika?
Iva, assolutament. U ma naħsibx li aħna qed jitkellem dwar l-ambigwitajiet tat-traduzzjoni każwali (żewġ lingwi qatt ma tista 'twassal l-sfumaturi istess eżatt u tifsiriet). John kien qed jirreferi għal dawk li skop tneħħi biċċiet ta 'viżjoni tiegħu, jew li kieku Sneak fil ideat ġodda kollha mingħajr kwalunkwe awtorità minn Alla biex jagħmlu dan.
Fil-fatt, hawnhekk huwa ta 'tidbit interessanti biex imorru flimkien ma li:
Fil-Ktieb ta 'Mormon, profeta jismu 1 Nephi jara ħafna mill-affarijiet istess viżjoni li John raw u kiteb dwar fl Apokalissi, iżda kien espressament projbit mill-kitba them down.
L-anġlu li juru Nephi-viżjoni jgħidlekx lilu, "Imma l-affarijiet li tara shalt thou shalt thou hawn ma jiktbu; għall-Mulej Alla hath ordnat l-appostlu tal-Ħaruf ta 'Alla li hu għandu jiktbu għalihom."
Imbagħad, Nephi narrates, "U jien, Nephi, jinstema u rekord jkollhom, li l-isem tal-appostlu tal-Ħaruf kien John, skond il-kelma ta 'l-anġlu. U behold, I, Nephi, am pprojbit li I għandu jikteb il-bqija tal-affarijiet li rajt u jinstemgħu; wherefore l-affarijiet li jiena ktibt sufficeth lili, u jien bil-miktub iżda parti żgħira mill-affarijiet li rajt "( 1 Nephi 14:25-28 ).
Huwa mument affaxxinanti, għaliex dan huwa kważi daqs li kieku John ikollu pretensjoni għad-drittijiet legali għall-kontenut ta 'din il-viżjoni. Huwa waħdu ġie ordnat saċerdot li jiktbu għalihom.
Thaddeus,
Dan huwa dak li nara Joseph Smith tagħmel fil-JST (Joseph Smith Translaton) fil-Bibbja LDS uffiċjali. I jista 'jkun kemmxejn off, iżda kellu madwar 80 jew hekk żidiet u t-tneħħija mill-ktieb ta' Rivelazzjoni.
Patty, li huwa punt eċċellenti. Xi ħaġa li għandna bżonn biex taħseb b'mod serju dwar. Minn perspettiva mhux Mormon, wieħed jista 'jara l-Traduzzjoni Smith Joseph tal-Ktieb ta' Rivelazzjoni bħala att audacious u serju offensiv mwettqa kontra Alla u martirju sussegwenti Joseph bħala twettiq tal-wegħda ominous.
Minn perspettiva ta 'Saint Latter ta' ġurnata, madankollu, naraw li Joseph kien l-profeta restawr. Nitgħallmu mill Nephi li kien hemm, fil-fatt, alterazzjonijiet magħmula għall-Bibbja. L-anġlu qallu, "Ghaldaqstant, seest thou li wara l-ktieb [l-Bibbja] hath marret lura permezz f'idejn il-knisja kbira u abominable, li hemm ħafna affarijiet sempliċi u prezzjuż meħuda bogħod mill-ktieb, li huwa l-ktieb ta ' l-ħaruf ta 'Alla "(1 Nephi 13:28).
Joseph kien ordnat bl-awtorità saċerdozju kemm (permezz tal-idejn ta 'Peter Rxoxt, James, u John - John istess aħna qed jitkellem dwar hawn), u ma' inġunzjoni divina permezz rivelazzjoni biex jirrestawraw dak li ġiet mibdula mit-test tal-qedem. Aħna nemmnu li kellu l-awtorità Alla partikolari u barka biex tagħmel dan.
Mewt Joseph, filwaqt makabri, sar ukoll evidenza qawwija ta 'tiegħu profeta-barnuża. Huwa ssiġillati xhieda tiegħu bid-demm tiegħu, li jfisser hu jemmen fil-sejħa tiegħu u l-pjanċi tad-deheb u visitations Angelic għaliex, iħabbtu wiċċhom ma 'mobs, swat, priġunerija illegali, u mewt, hu qatt ma wavered fid-determinazzjoni tiegħu jew wera xi sinjali ta' għoti ruħu bħala frodi. Dan il-fatt, flimkien ma 'oħrajn mijiet li nistgħu jsemmu, jipprovdi appoġġ sod għall raġuni tagħna.
Issa, Patty, nista 'nifhem li inti mhux se taċċetta biss din l-ispjegazzjoni, u nistenna li inti xorta se jemmnu Joseph sinned fil-ħolqien tal JST, imma nispera li inti tista' tara li l-argument huwa tractable fuq in-naħa l-oħra.
Għandi l-pjaċir li inti waslet għall sit tagħna sabiex inġibu spjegazzjoni mill f'ħalq iż-żiemel, biex ngħidu hekk. Hija se tagħmel inti dinjiet ta 'tajba fit-twassil fehim u għarfien fuq dawk in-nies li jirrifjutaw li tisma naħa tagħna.
Thaddeus,
Inti taw spjegazzjoni gracious. Nixtieq inkun onest. Hija saret apparenti fil-rispons tiegħek li I involontarjament wasslu inti fis-ħsieb xi ħaġa dwar me li ma kinitx korretta. Naf ftit aktar dwar il-fidi LDS minn dak li taħseb. You see, I użati biex tkun waħda - wieħed devout wisq. Bear miegħi. Xi wħud li jitilqu Mormonism huma morr, xi wħud huma ħafna antagonistiċi. Mhux lili! (Jekk jogħġbok ma jitqiegħdu dak il-ħajt up u jiġu suspetti ta 'kulħadd I say; I know I jkollhom bħala Mormon jekk xi ħadd told me dak I biss qallek.)
I kien l-aqwa, il-ħajja jbiddlu, konverżjoni indescribable għal ħajja ġdida fi Kristu minn qatt I immaġina kien saħansitra possibbli. I do not jikkummentaw bħal dan ħafna drabi, iżda fuq okkażjoni se jaqsmu xhieda tiegħi, sfida membri LDS, u nisperaw jkunu jistgħu jaqsmu dak li l-Mulej ghamel ghalina permezz tal-Evanġelju ta 'grazzja u fil-ħajja tiegħi personalment. Bħala Mormon qabel, I kien estremament reżistenti għad xejn kontra Mormonism, so I jsibuha sfida kbira biex jaqsmu mal-Mormons. I run fil-ħitan, u xi kultant ostilità u kultant redikolu. I biss ma jistax jgħin lilu! Għandi għajnejn ġodda u bil-qawwa x-xewqa għal kwalunkwe mill-LDS li jkollha dak I issa għandhom fi Kristu. Kelma t'Alla lilna kif irrivelat fil-Bibbja sar ħaj lili issa. Huwa gwida tiegħi, fanal għal saqajn tiegħi. Għandi l-akbar rispett u reverence għal dan (u huwa għalhekk li Naqra din il-kariga).
Whew, ma 'dik intro twil, lura għas-suġġett. I jissoponi li jkun tajjeb li tkun taf mbagħad jekk Joseph kienu verament profeta veru. L-implikazzjonijiet huma enormi; mhux biss għalih, imma int. Semmejt l-mewt tiegħu bħal provi ta 'hood profeta tiegħu. Inħeġġiġkom biex jinqraw, u forsi għandek, mhux preġudikata parti terza kont tal-mewt tiegħu. Kienet veru eye opener għalija. Back biex is-suġġett. Inti jidhru qawwi ħafna u jien ċert jista 'jaħseb xi raġunijiet meraviljuż jew prova ta' l-Joseph profeta-barnuża. Il-problema biss li hija ħsibijiet ta 'Alla huma ogħla minn tagħna u aħna m'għandniex dgħif fuq il-fehim tagħna stess. Irridu line up ħsibijiet tagħna ma Alla; aħna ma tara jekk aħna fiduċja kelma t'Alla għax tallinja w / sentimenti tagħna. Aħna qatt ma għandha tassumi Huwa ser jaħseb b'ċertu mod biss għaliex nagħmlu. Kelma t'Alla IS verità u aħna lilna nfusna jaġġustaw għall-IT. Ġesù u xi appostli wissiet ta 'għalliema foloz u profeti. Ikun sbieħ jekk Alla kien qalilna kif wieħed ikun jaf ... u għal darb'oħra Huwa juri kindness loving tiegħu mill-preservazzjoni kelma tiegħu hekk nistgħu nafu għal ċerti.
Filwaqt li hemm ħafna Iskrittura, jien ser jikkonċentraw fuq Dewteronomju 13 u 18. Dan huwa fejn insibu dawn l-istruzzjonijiet. Avviż, profeti foloz jistgħu juru sinjali kbar u jistaqsi. Huma jistgħu jwettqu mirakli. Profeti foloz jistgħu jagħtu profeziji preċiża. Fil-Testment il-Ġdid, nitgħallmu li se jidhru tajbin u tqarraq ħafna. Still għalkemm, dan ma jipprovax profeta veru. Il-mod nafu jekk huma foloz huwa 1.) Dawn jintroduċu Alla differenti u 2.) Xi ħaġa li jiddikjara l-isem tal-Mulej ma jiġu jgħaddu. Nafu Alla eternally kien Alla u qabel lilu ma kien hemm ebda Alla u wara lilu mhux se jkun hemm Gods (Isaija 43:10 + minn 20 versi oħra). Joseph mgħallma li Alla kien raġel li tgħallmu jkun Alla u aħna ltqajna biex jitgħallmu kif tkun allat wkoll. Għalhekk, Joseph introduċiet Alla li huwa differenti minn dak għajxien Alla veru. I jistgħu jaħsbu 3 eżempji off-quċċata tar-ras tiegħi fil D & C fejn Joseph tkellem fl-isem tal-Mulej u dawk l-affarijiet ma seħħx. I jistgħu jiksbu twil xejn b'xejn hawn, jekk hekk tixtieq me back up talbiet tiegħi speċifikament, I se.
I wisq użati biex jemmnu dak mexxejja tiegħi told me dwar il-Bibbja. We użati biex jilagħbu l-logħba tat-telefon biex juru kif affidabbli-Bibbja kienet fiż-żgħażagħ tiegħi. Li kollha kemm huma bidlu ma 'konverżjoni tiegħi, l-għajnejn ġodda u riċerka.
Patty
Hi Patty,
Onestament, I am so kuntenti għalik li inti huma kuntenti fil-ħajja spiritwali tiegħek. M'intix ser issib ħafna ostilità hawn, speċjalment jekk m'intix qed ostili lilek innifsek (nirringrazzjak għax ma ostili).
Jien sempliċiment kurjuż li tkun taf li, eżattament, kien xhud parti terza imparzjali għall-mewt Joseph? Il-Mob jew il-persuni fil-ħabs miegħu? Hemm weren'ta ħafna nies mhux imwaħħla biss mdendlin madwar hemmhekk.
Xorta waħda, grazzi għall-kummenti u Xorti tajba fil-mixja tiegħek ma 'Kristu.
Jan,
Grazzi għall-tweġiba tip.
Jiena naqbel, fil-ġurnata ta 'Joseph, mhux wisq nies kienu newtrali lejn lilu. What I tfisser kont parti terza kien mill-awturi tal-lum. L-istoriċi li għamlu r-riċerka tagħhom għall-finijiet tal-istorja. Jien dejjem ikkunsidrajt li kien il-ħabs fuq akkużi foloz, iżda qatt ħsibt li jistaqsu dak li l-ħlasijiet kienu u qatt ma qal. Il-ħlasijiet kienu li huwa ordna l-qerda tal-expositor Nauvoo, gazzetta li l-ewwel u biss Edizzjoni allegat Smith kien jipprattika poligamija (li huwa ppruvaw jaħbu) u li hu maħsub biex jistabbilixxi ruħu bħala re theocratic. Minħabba l-klima politika tumultuous fil-pajjiż pjuttost ġdida tal-Istati Uniti, din kienet kwistjoni sensittiva ħafna.
I wkoll ħasbu li miet martri. I qatt ma induna Cyrus Wheelock kienet tat Joseph Pistola żgħir qabel il-jum miet. Wara l-Mob attakkati, Joseph sparati kollha rawnds sitt fil-Mob; 3 misfired u 3 midruba tliet attakkanti. Jien ma anki jsir ġudizzju hawn lejn Joseph u awto-difiża tiegħu. Huwa biss li l-sħiħ heroic martirju istorja I kien qal fiż-żgħażagħ tiegħi ma kienx dak li rriżulta li jkun.
I kien sewqan fil-Wyoming ma mom tiegħi li huwa blu veru, Valiant Mormon. Aħna saq minn xi djar li kienu okkupati minn polygamists. I talab liema hi ħsibt dwar dan. Hija recited dak I kiber smigħ. Hija miżjuda wkoll, "aħna mhux ċert, iżda naħseb Joseph seta 'ukoll prattikat poligamija." I kien kurjuż dak li l-knisja LDS uffiċjali jgħid dwar dan. I marru għall-uffiċjali LDS (dot) org sit u għafast fuq il-link tfittxija familja. I ittajpjat fil informazzjoni tiegħu u l-knisja LDS djun li ilhom aktar minn 20 ta 'żwiġijiet tiegħu. Wieħed b'mod partikolari maqbuda tiegħi għajn. Isimha kien Zina Huntington. Tista 'wkoll ikklikkja fuq isimha għall info żwieġ tagħha. Hija miżżewġa Guy msemmija Henry fir-rebbiegħa ta 1841 u mbagħad miżżewġa Joseph fil-waqgħa 'l-istess sena. Zina u Henry kienet diġà miżżewġa fil-ħin. (D & C 132:61)
Dan mhuwiex il-punt prinċipali madankollu. Il-massa tal-ewwel kumment huwa li turi li Alla tatna kelma tiegħu dwar kif tkun taf profeti foloz. 1.huma jintroduċu god differenti u 2. dawn jagħmlu profezija fl-isem tal-Mulej u ma jiġu jgħaddu. Dan huwa dak li ġara ma 'Joseph.
Isma, naf kif il-Joseph jirrispetaw LDS u naf inti probabilment se teħodha personalment; I know I jkollhom. Jien ma jolqot anki jekk ma jkunx daqshekk importanti. Just avviż fil-tweġiba tiegħi, I ma xi ħadd belittle u ippruvaw ikunu unemotional u biss stat dak li naf. Nixtieq tama inti fiduċja u jkollha fidi dak li Alla qalilna fuq dan is-suġġett. Poġġi il-piż tiegħek fil-kelma tiegħu, let lilu tkun fondazzjoni tiegħek, mhux sensazzjoni kellek. Test l-ispirti; jekk kellek manifestazzjoni spiritwali li kien kuntrarju għal dak Alla diġà qalulna (Joseph tkun profeta veru), ma kienx mill-Ispirtu s-Santu għax Hu qatt ma jikkontradixxi l-Missier, u l-Missier taw sempliċi ħafna 2 parti tat-test Dewteronomju 13 u 18 li Joseph fallew.
Patty
Hi Patty,
Grazzi għall tispjega dawk il-kwistjonijiet storiċi. I attwalment kienet diġà smajt minnhom kollha. Imma dawn kienu ftit jarring-ewwel darba I realizzati dawk l-affarijiet wisq. We definitely tikseb verżjoni aktar sanitizzati fil-manwali u fil Ħadd Iskola. Imma sibt (kif għamilt) ħafna l-informazzjoni korretta fuq il-websajt LDS, u b'mod Istitut, li jagħmel me think mhumiex jippruvaw jaħbu dan.
Xorta waħda, I japprezzaw kif jista ħawwad xhieda ta 'xi ħadd.
Stajt jinstemgħu li Rolling Stone Rough hija riżorsa kbira, storikament, għall-fehim tal-kuntest tal-ħajja Joseph Smith. Huwa fil-fatt wieħed mill-Riżoluzzjonijiet tiegħi Snin ġodda biex taqraha. Stajt kienu kapaċi jirrikonċiljaw dawk l-affarijiet ma 'l-Evanġelju u l-ispirtu li inħoss fil-Knisja u ma jolqot lili, imma aħna qed kollha fuq mogħdijiet tagħna stess lura lil Alla. Huma ma għandhom isegwu l-istess kors, iżda nisperaw li dawn se jkollhom l-istess destinazzjoni.
Jan,
Int li jissuġġerixxi li hemm bosta mogħdijiet li jwasslu lejn Alla?
Patty
Patty, I maħsuba biex tagħmel tweġiba preċedenti, iżda biss ma kellhomx il-ħin. Jan pretty ħafna ħadu l-kliem mill-ħalq tiegħi.
Il-kwistjoni fil-idejn hija jekk Joseph Smith kien profeta, u jien ferħan li aħna jaqblu fuq dan il-punt. I wkoll japprezzaw tħassib tiegħek għall-benesseri tagħna. Ninsab kuntenta li inti kura.
The main ħaġa li jkollha me twemmin tiegħi fil-sejħa Joseph huwa l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon. Bħala rekord antika, huwa bogħod minn skreditat. Fil-fatt, bona fide tagħha huma aktar siguri issa milli meta ġiet ippubblikata; mal-iskoperta ftit snin ilu ta 'artal iskritti bil-isem NHM fil-Jemen, din ma tistax tiġi mitluba teżisti ebda evidenza arkeoloġiku għall-ktieb. Istudjużi sekulari għad iridu jagħmlu irjus jew dnub ta 'l- xhieda tal-pjanċi .
Prinċipalment, il-punt tal-ktieb huwa li jġib erwieħ għal Kristu. Qari dan ġab lili lilu ħafna fl-istess mod inti qal li rċevejt "par għajnejn friski." Il-Ktieb ta 'Mormon huwa Tajba. Bniedem ħażen ma setgħet ħolqot dan, u raġel tajjeb ma kienx dared, sakemm ma kienet diretta minn Alla.
Huwa mhux biss dwar Joseph Smith bħala biċċa tal-ħalq għal Alla, għalkemm. Dan huwa punt kruċjali tal-bidu, iżda sservi wkoll bħala punt jumping off għall-ieħor sett ta 'mistoqsijiet: kif ma Missier tkellimna? Min huma profeti tiegħu? Ma Huwa risposta talb? Nista taf liema huwa minnu? Kif nista 'nsib?
B'xorti tajba, l-esperjenza tiegħi fil Mormonism tani fondazzjoni sigur għall-tweġibiet għal dawn il-mistoqsijiet. Għandi fiduċja fl-azzjonijiet tiegħi għaliex naf li l-Mulej huwa gracious u se twieġeb talb tiegħi. I jista 'jkollhom fiduċja f'dawn talb mwieġba speċjalment meta jkunu supplimentati bil-tweġibiet nsib fl-Iskrittura (profeti mejtin) u fit-tagħlim tal-profeti għajxien.
Patty,
I assolutament jemmnu li hemm bħala mogħdijiet ħafna lil Alla kif hemm nies fuq id-dinja. Ħadd ma jgħix l-ħajja istess bl-istess esperjenzi-kollox huwa mfassal lilna għall-ġid tagħna minn Patri Tip tagħna fil-ġenna.
Madankollu, I DO jafu li kollha tal-mogħdijiet li jkunu sejrin Ħajja Dejjiema eventwalment jgħaddu mill-tempju. Li jfisser ukoll li f'xi punt, kulħadd li tkun se "sema" (għalkemm taf li huwa terminu vag ħafna LDS teoloġija-I tfisser Renju ċelesti f'dan il-każ) gets hemm permezz tal-ordinanzi officiated permezz tal-Saċerdozju ta 'Alla.
Forsi inti ser ikollok l-aqwa esperjenza f'dan knisja imma 20 sena minn issa Ser tħoss li xi ħaġa hija nieqsa u inti ser issib lura fil-Knisja LDS. Imma inti qatt ma aċċettat bis-sħiħ u apprezzat sinifikat tiegħu mingħajr l-ħin tiegħek fil-knisja oħra. Jien ċert Alla qed twassal triq tiegħek eżatt kif HES jwassal mini. Nemmen ukoll li jekk inti tkompli tkun miftuħa għall direzzjoni tiegħu, huwa se jwassal inti lura lill-Knisja LDS.
Dan huwa dak li jfisser minn kulħadd ta 'ċomb mogħdijiet tagħna huma differenti iżda jwasslu għal Alla.
Lest ħadd jieħu dan il-kumment l-mod żbaljat, inħoss li tiżdied fil hawn u tfakkar li l-mod lura għal Alla huwa permezz ta 'Kristu u Mormons jemmnu li dan huwa l-uniku mod.
Ma ttraskuratx dak Jan qal hawnhekk hi taħdidiet dwar it-toroq bħala li esperjenzi differenti għal kull individwu.
Assolutament dritt, grazzi Willie! L-uniku mod biex Alla huwa permezz ta 'Ġesù Kristu. Anke ma 'l-ordinanzi meħtieġa, mingħajr fidi fi Kristu, indiema u l-karità, Kristu mhumiex ser jitolbu għalina bħala tiegħu stess u aħna mhux se terġa' lura lejn Alla mingħajr promozzjoni ta 'Kristu.
Jiddispjacini li ma toħroġ fil ramblings filosofiku tiegħi qabel.
Jan u Willie,
Grazzi għall-kjarifika. I kien jibdew wonder jekk Jan kien wara Oprah qrib wisq jew għalliem tagħha duttrina Evanġelju kien jistudja xi materjal ta 'età ġdida fil-ġenb (joke!) Serjament, I think I jifhmu fejn Jan ikun ġej minn. Hija idea sabiħ li kulħadd eventwalment se jispiċċaw fis-sema, iżda li hija ta 'tagħlim falza. M'għandekx tieħu kelma tiegħi għaliha, iżda l-awtorità tal-kelma stess Alla. Aħna għandhom dejjem jiġu ttestjati jew jippruvaw l-tagħlim nisimgħu ma 'dak li Alla kien diġà qalulna u tallinja lilna nfusna ma', eterna tiegħu unfading, kelma ma jinbidlux, inkella nistgħu jiġi akkużat li (2 Timotju 4:3) "widnejn ħakk."
Kien Ġesù nnifsu li qalulna li mhux kulħadd se jispiċċaw fis-sema. (Matt 5:22,29,30; 11:23; 18:8,9; 23:33; 25:41,46; 1 Ġwanni 5; 12, Luqa 12:05; 13:13; John 8:21, 24 ...) Hu qal ukoll, "wiesgħa hija l-mod, li leadeth għall-qerda, u ħafna jkun hemm li jmorru fl hemmhekk." (Matt 07:13)
Ikkunsidra dan. L-ebda tieni ċans - ngħixu, allura huma meqjusa - l-ebda ordinanzi prokura. Lhud 9:27, "U kif huwa maħtur unto irġiel darba li jmutu, imma wara din is-sentenza l-."
Ebda ħtieġa għal xogħol ta 'prokura minħabba ... Rumani 1:19,20 "Minħabba dak li jista' jkun magħruf ta 'Alla huwa manifest fihom; għal Alla hath shewed dan unto minnhom ... sabiex ikunu mingħajr skuża."
Plus, li jagħmilha l-ġenna ogħla mogħtija lilna bħala rigal, mhux billi jwettqu ordinanzi. (Eph 2:8-9) Paul tkompli tispjega li l-Lhud jemmnu u Gentiles huma issa parti mill-korp wieħed (il-knisja). Avviż dak titneħħa u dak li huwa l-enmity. "Wara li jitneħħew laħam tiegħu l-enmity, anke l-liġi ta 'kmandamenti li jinsabu fl-ordinanzi; għall biex jagħmlu fih innifsu ta' twain 1 bniedem ġdid, sabiex jagħmlu paċi; U li huwa jista 'jirrikonċilja kemm unto Alla fil-korp wieħed mill-salib, li slain l-enmity bihom. "(Efesin 2:15,16)
Jan, nirringrazzjak għall kompassjoni tiegħek bit-tama I se terga 'lura. I onestament ħafna jirrispettaw inti għal dan! Wieħed kunċett żbaljat komuni hija li l-knejjes oħra li jħossu li huma l-knisja minnu biss bħall-jħossu LDS. Dan ma jkunx hekk. Il-maġġoranza ta 'knejjes Kristjani oħrajn jirrikonoxxu li n-nies fil-knejjes Kristjani oħrajn' tkun taf Alla u jkollhom salvazzjoni ukoll. Il-knisja hija l-korp ta 'Kristu u hija waħda. Huwa jew "jaf" int jew Hu ma. I issa jsegwu u jafu l-Alla wieħed veru, il-knisja I jattendu biss jiġri li jkun grupp lokali tajba ta 'dawk li jemmnu oħra, imma l-attendenza tiegħi hemm m'għandha x'taqsam xejn w / jagħmlu lill-ġenna ogħla.
Huwa talb tiegħi li inti mhux ser fiduċja fil X'taħseb hija korretta, jew saħansitra xi persuna oħra, iżda jmorru dritt għall-sors - il-kelma aqwa ta 'Alla li Hu protett u l-fiduċja lilu, liema Jgħid (Isaija 40.: 8, Proverbji 13:13)
Thaddeus,
Grazzi għall-sabar biex tippermetti lill me vuċi. I xewqa li tifhem I ġejjin minn pożizzjoni ta 'gentleness u paċenzja. Jekk jogħġbok tisma me out.
Inti qal, "Il-Ktieb ta 'Mormon huwa Tajba. Bniedem ħażen ma setgħux maħluqa minnha. "Hawn hu l-problema. Jekk xi ħaġa se jqarraq, hija għandha tfittex tajba. Jekk Satana jew demons tiegħu dehru bħala figuri scary naraw murija fil-films ma hemmx mod kif xi ħadd se jiġu mqarrqa. Jekk deher ħażen, aħna mhux se jaħsbu li kienu tajbin. Dik hija l-punt kollu li jkunu mqarrqa. Nitgħallmu mill-Bibbja li fil-ħinijiet finali, l-anti-Kristu se jidhru bħala detentur paċi u xi wħud saħansitra se żball lilu għal Messija. Huwa ser tħares tajjeb ħafna! Ukoll, huwa Satana stess li jista 'jidher bħala anġlu ta' dawl. "U l-ebda Marvel;. Għall Satana nnifsu hi trasformata anġlu ta 'dawl" 2 Korintin 11:14
1. Kif il-missier tkellimna? Lhud 1:1,2 "Alla, li fi żminijiet varji u fil-għaddasa manjieri spake unto fil PASSAT ħin l-missirijiet mill-profeti, hath f'dawn il-jiem aħħar mitkellma unto lilna mill Ibnu."
2. Min huma profeti tiegħu? Luqa 16:16 "Il-liġi u l-profeti kienu sakemm John: peress li meta l-saltna ta 'Alla huwa ppriedka, u kull presseth bniedem fih." Wkoll Matt 11:13.
3. Ma Huwa risposta talb? Iva. u Hu jkompli jiggwidana. (Salm 119:105) Imma issa għandna aċċess lil Alla permezz ta 'Ġesù. Meta Ġesù miet, il-velu fit-tempju kien litteralment titqatta minn fuq għal isfel bħala indikazzjoni li l-aċċess tagħna lil Alla huwa issa mill medjatur tagħna u qassis il-kbir - Ġesù, mhux raġel li kellu l-kariga ta 'qassis il-kbir li offra sagrifiċċji kull sena. Il-OT kien foreshadow 'affarijiet li ġejjin u kollha indikat Ġesù. Kien lilu li offra l-sagrifiċċju finali u sodisfatti l-uffiċċju ta 'qassis; huwa Hu li hu qassis il-kbir tagħna. (Ktieb ta 'Lhud). Il-ħajja nisranija hija reali, għajxien, relazzjoni ma 'l-Alla wieħed veru permezz Iben Tiegħu.
4. Nista taf liema huwa minnu? Jiddependi, tista 'tieħu Alla fil-kelma tiegħu? Tista fiduċja dak Huwa diġà qalulna? Jekk iva, it-tweġiba hi IVA! John 17:17 "Sanctify lilhom permezz verità jsw. KELMA Thy IS VERITÀ" Proverbji 22:19-21 "Din il-fiduċja jsw jistgħu jkunu fil-Mulej, I għamlu magħrufa li thee din il-ġurnata, anke biex thee ... Dik I tista 'tagħmel thee TAF-ċertezza tal-kliem ta 'VERITÀ ... "John 8:31-32" Jekk ye tkompli WORD tiegħi mbagħad huma ye dixxipli tiegħi tassew;. U ye għandhom jafu l-verità "Ovvjament dak li naqraw fil-Bibbja hija kelma ta' Alla verità, appoġġjata minn Ismu. Nistgħu TAF verità. Alla huwa serju dwar kelma tiegħu. Huwa wiegħed li qatt ma jitilqu, jew fade u Hu magnifies kelma tiegħu anke fuq Ismu. (Salm 138:2)
5. Kif nista 'nsib? Issa nafu huwa verità dak, aħna sempliċiment tħares lejn dak it-talba hija u tqabbilha mal-verità. Sempliċi ħafna. (1 Ġwanni 4:1) Iżda, hawnhekk hija kif aħna ma jsibu verità. Mhuwiex sensazzjoni fil-qalb tagħna. Jeremiah 17:09 "il-qalb hija qarrieqa fuq l-affarijiet kollha, u bla dubju wicked. Min jista taf "Proverbji 14:2" Hemm mod li seemeth dritt unto bniedem, iżda l-maħdumin minnhom aħħar huma l-modi tal-mewt "Proverbji 28:26" Hu li jittama fil-qalb tiegħu huwa iqarqu;?. Iżda whoso walketh bil-għaqal, huwa għandu jingħata. "
Aħna jingħataw bosta eżempji ta 'kif in-nies tiġu biex issiru tafu l-verità. L-ewwel, il-kwistjoni hija mitluba, kif jistgħu jsejħu fuq lilu li fihom għadhom ma semgħu? It-tweġiba: cometh Fidi permezz tas-smigħ, u s-smigħ bil-kelma ta 'Alla. (Rumani 10:14-17). Ukoll, meta Paul u Silas marru Berea u ppriedka l-Evanġelju għal grupp ta 'nies li ma kinux jafu dawn, ma naraw minnhom tinkina fit-talb biex tirċievi xhieda? Le, naraw minnhom tiftix l-Iskrittura biex tara jekk l-affarijiet li ppriedka aħna veru. Huma faħħar għal dan. (Atti 17:10-12). Jekk modi Alla huma ogħla minn tagħna u ħsibijiet tiegħu ogħla minn tagħna, għandna bżonn li jikkonformaw twemmin tagħna li Tiegħu, mhux il-mod ieħor madwar.
I xewqa li inti tista 'ġurnata waħda ngħid, "esperjenza tiegħi fil [Kristu] tani fondazzjoni sigur għall-tweġibiet għal dawn il-mistoqsijiet. Għandi fiduċja fl-azzjonijiet [l-Mulej] għaliex naf li l-Mulej huwa gracious u se twieġeb talb tiegħi. I jista 'jkollhom fiduċja fil-[kelma ta' Alla u li r-risposti vera għall-talb tiegħi se line up perfettament ma kelma tiegħu. I jista 'jkollhom din il-fiduċja għax Hu mhux se jikkontradixxu nnifsu.] Dawn talb mwieġba huma [verifikati] bil-verità [] nsib fl-Iskrittura.
Fl-imħabba u sinċerità,
Patty
Patty, jien apprezzaw ħafna ta 'ton tagħkom. Grazzi għaż-żamma diskussjoni tagħna ċivili.
Kien hemm ħafna fil-kummenti tiegħek latest li nixtieq jirrispondu għal, iżda għall-qosor u fini fokus "I taf biss prudenza inti ma oversimplify jew Mormonism jew Kristjaneżmu.
Inti żżomm dan up bħala l-istandard għall jafu verità bħallikieku Mormons ma nemminx fit-tfittix Iskrittura għal tweġibiet u kif jekk Insara ma nemminx fil tweġibiet diretti lill-talb. Naħseb li inti qed misrappreżentazjoni-żewġ naħat. I sabu l-aktar suċċess jirċievu direzzjoni permezz tal-Ispirtu s-Santu meta I jimpjegaw kemm Iskrittura istudju ( 2 Timotju 3:15-16 ) u personali, talb iddedikat ( Mattew 21:22 ). Sawm wkoll jgħin lili jgħaqqdu l-Ispirtu. I do fiduċja tal-Bibbja, u nagħmel taqrah. Studju kliem ta 'Alla fl-Iskrittura jgħin lili jagħrfu lilhom meta dawn jiġu biex lili personalment.
Hawnhekk huwa ieħor misrappreżentazzjoni. Inti jippreżumu li dak Mormons jsejħu l-influwenza ta 'l-Ispirtu s-Santu huwa biss sensazzjoni u li Mormons mistrieħ sistema tagħhom twemmin kollu fuq l-esperjenza emozzjonali fondata. L-influwenza ta 'l-Ispirtu huwa normalment akkumpanjata minn reazzjoni emozzjonali rikonoxxibbli ( Luqa 24:32 ), u għandu wkoll jiġi ma xi ammont ta 'intelligence jew għarfien ġdid ( Ġwanni 14:26 ). Huwa jikkomunika lill-qlub tagħna u l-imħuħ. Huwa jistenna wkoll li nistgħu studju rivelazzjonijiet preċedenti mogħtija permezz ta 'kanali saċerdotali awtorevoli għall-iskop ta' verifika tendenza tal-bniedem tagħna għall-manifattura u jemmnu ħsibijiet tagħna stess, kif rivelazzjonijiet, li huwa dak Ġeremija wissiet us kontra.
Jemmnu jew le, aħna ma jaħsbu dwar jekk aħna qed jiġu mqarrqa. Nagħmlu prijorità li jitgħallmu kemm nistgħu b'kull mezz disponibbli inkluż talb u studju Iskrittura.
Aħna biss bħala konxji ta 'twissija Pawl kif int. Nixtieq kawtela inti milli tużah bħala arma, għaliex dan huwa faċli ħafna biex inbiddlu l-tabelli: mill-perspettiva tagħna din Iskrittura tappartjieni għal ħafna mill-knisja Kristjana, għall-inqas sa fejn huma mqarrqa fil piously tiċħad l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon u kull possibbiltà ta 'rivelazzjoni ġdida.
Il-devil jista 'jikkwota l-Iskrittura, wisq ( Mattew 04:06 ), li tfisser anke l-KELMA pur (bħal fil-"WORD Thy IS VERITÀ") jista 'jkun "Wrested" ( 1 Pietru 3:16 ) jew misapproprjati. A poeżiji Bibbja hija biss tajbin daqs l-interpretazzjoni u applikazzjoni tiegħu.
Dawn kienu ftit mill-assunzjonijiet rajt fl-argument tiegħek li inti għandek teżamina aktar mill-qrib. Nispera li mhux se teħodhom personalment; I ftit tama li inti ser tagħmel l-isforz żejjed biex jitkellmu dwar twemmin attwali tagħna u l-prattiċi minflok dawn hyperboles.
Imħabba fi Kristu,
Thaddeus
Thaddeus,
Ukoll qal. Nifhem fejn inti ġejjin minn. Napprezza l-punti inti jitrabbew dwar ir-rwol tal-Ispirtu s-Santu u kif Huwa jikkonferma verità - qalb u moħħ. I jista 'jara kif il-kummenti tiegħi jista' jidher abjad u iswed - (fuq Mormon ma studju Iskrittura u l-Insara ma jiddependux fuq talb). Li mhuwiex il-punt I kien qed jipprova jagħmel tiegħi-ħżiena. Let me jippruvaw jispjegaw aħjar dan iż-żmien.
Naħseb sentenza tajba li jikkwalifikaw kif inti mifhum porzjon tal-kumment tiegħi kien dan: "Inti żżomm dan up bħala l-istandard għall jafu verità bħallikieku Mormons ma nemminx fit-tfittix Iskrittura għal tweġibiet u kif jekk Kristjani ma jemmnux fir-risposti diretti għall-talb. "
Il-punt I kien qed jipprova jagħmel huwa li meta jkun ippreżentat bi duttrina jew verità tinsab fil Alla affidabbli, kelma ma jinbidlux li Hu wiegħed Huwa se jżomm (il-Bibbja) - dak rispons korrett ta 'persuna għandha tkun, speċjalment meta dik verità hija f'kunflitt w / sistema attwali twemmin. Ir-rispons korrett huwa li tbiddel l-imħuħ tagħna biex jikkonformaw ma 'kelma ta' Alla. Jien lanqas jimplika li l-Insara tagħmel dan - huma għandhom l-imma ma. Hemm nuqqas ta 'qbil dwar id-duttrina? Sure. Iżda mhux il-qalba. L-affarijiet ewlenin huma l-affarijiet sempliċi u l-affarijiet sempliċi huma l-affarijiet prinċipali. U iva, bħalek qal, l-Ispirtu s-Santu ma tikkonferma verità (qalb u moħħ).
L-isfida fil Mormonism hija li meta jkun ippreżentat bi duttrina / verità mill-kelma ta 'Alla li huwa f'kunflitt (u ħafna drabi reċiprokament esklużivi) ma Mormon duttrina, il-membru LDS ċaħdet l-kelma ta' Alla u duttrina jagħżel Mormonism għax dawn kienu jiddependu fuq il-ħruq fil tagħhom bosom. Jien dejjem taf meta l-Mormon ma tistax tidra tgħix bl-verità fil-kelma ta 'Alla għaliex jibdew iġorru xhieda tagħhom (li jiena ma mocking u nifhem huwa prezzjuż lilhom). Meta I kien LDS jiena naħseb, "bħal problema Kalkulu ikkumplikata, I biss ma tistax tifhem l-kunflitt li qam. Let me tpoġġi din il-kwistjoni fuq l-ixkaffa. Naf li l-Knisja huwa minnu għaliex kelli li ħruq fil bosom tiegħi meta I talab dwar il-BOM. Għalhekk, ikun x'ikun huwa ppreżentat lili li ma 'tidħolx fil w / Mormon duttrina għandhom ikollhom xi tweġiba I biss ma jifhmux għadha. "I find dan l-approċċ huwa komuni fl membri LDS u aktar spiss ammess mill-popolazzjoni femminili. Anke mill-opinjoni tiegħek, il-Mormon xorta din il-problema ta 'w / l-BOM bħala xi profeti moderni jikkontradixxu xi duttrina minnha kif ukoll, speċjalment meta mqabbla mal-oriġinali qabel l-bidliet saru (mhux kollha grammatikali - xi sinifikanti) .
Jekk dan konferma hija mill-Ispirtu s-Santu (min I call Ispirtu s-Santu), allura għandu għal-linja w / u mhux kunflitt ta 'w / Alla kelma qaddis. Fl-1 Ġwanni 4:01 aħna qal li jittestjaw l-ispirti. Kif nistgħu test minnhom? Ma naqbel w / Alla? Jekk ikollok konferma li tmur kontra Alla, huwa MHUX l-Ispirtu s-Santu li ħadt dak konferma (qalb u moħħ). However, if you get that confirmation and it lines up w/ God's word, then it's a good confirmation. I mean really, does an engaged couple who prays and feels that the Holy Spirit revealed to them it is okay to live together first really think that came from God? The answer is obvious! You take your spiritual confirmations you get in prayer and see if lines up w/ God.
The whole Jeremiah 17:9 and Provers scriptures as it applies to Mormonism comes into play when you are faced with believing God's word, or the burning in your bosom when amidst conflict. It is not discounting the valid confirmations from the Holy Spirit.
It doesn't have to be complicated – more childlike actually. One way to dismiss the plain truths in the Bible are to say – oh that's just your interpretation. I say that words have meaning and we are really communicating. Plus, Scripture is not open to private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20) Thus hermeneutics; what did the author intend? How did the original audience understand it? and so forth.
How does this play out practically? Just as our whole conversation began. God gives us a test to determine a false prophet. A plain, simple test. They introduce a different God. They predict something in the name of God that did not come to pass. Joseph fits that description (and some false predictions in the name of the Lord are canonized in D&C). The LDS is then presented with a dilema. Do I really trust what God's word says, or do I go w/ the burning in my bosom. He even warns that false prophets can perform many signs and wonders. The signs and wonders do not prove one true. False prophets will appear good and thus deceive many. Do you go w/ God's word, or your spiritual confirmation? Test it! What spirit gave you that confirmation? Does it agree w/ God?
You mentioned talking about actual beliefs, not hyperbole. Here are a few core Biblical beliefs that are in conflict w/ Mormonism: God, Jesus, Bible, Man, and Salvation. Mormon doctrine is in opposition to what the Bible says on all those things. More specifically: here is God speaking to us through Isaiah with great passion. This is His testimony to us: (Isaiah 43:10) “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” If I were to try and coin a phrase that would be opposite that, I couldn't have said better than Lorenzo Snow, “as man is God once was, as God is man may become.” We also know according to Isaiah that God did not have a father, He alone is God; also we will not become a god. It was Joseph who said we have got to learn to become gods ourselves.
If following the Mormon gospel has the potential to get you to the highest heaven, then my pursuing this conversation would be foolish and rude. Given my knowledge though, how could I not reach out to the people I came from w/ the good news? “Patty, you knew and never told me?” is something I don't want to be guilty of. My intent is not to mock or degrade. I am not pointing the finger of scorn. It's an invitation really. I have no power to change your mind. The word of God though is powerful and the Spirit convicts.
Having said that, I'm curious what you think I believe the real gospel is.
In compassion,
Patty
So we are in agreement that it takes both scripture study and personal prayer to receive guidance from the Lord. You are concerned that Mormons lean too much on spiritual guidance and not enough on scripture, particularly the Bible. Is that correct?
You have another concern that Mormons muddle their scriptural reading by including prophetic and apostolic writings beyond the Bible. Is that right?
I assume that even if some mentioned lost biblical books were discovered (The Book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the Seer, The Book of Gad the Seer, the other epistles to the Corinthians, etc.) you would not treat them with the same reverence you give those in the current version of the Bible, since the Lord didn't “keep” them. Do I assume correctly?
Għandi tliet mistoqsijiet. I'd like to know where in the Bible you learn that its words are inerrant. Where do you read that the record is closed (incapable of being supplemented)? When and why did God stop calling prophets (mortals who serve as his mouthpiece on earth, including apostles)?
I get so frustrated with myself – I wish I could write more concisely and clearly. So sorry for the length. I hope you are even reading all my comments.
Yes, we agree – both prayer and Scripture for guidance.
(But do you really need to pray for guidance when God has clearly spoken though? – Do we really need to pray if we can lie about our taxes, go into more debt for that boat we really want (coveting), live immorally w/ our fiancé, or want to follow someone who has given false prophecy in His name?) I think it honors God when we revere Him and take Him at His word by trusting It. Don't think I am downplaying prayer; my prayer life as a Christian is more alive, vibrant, effective and overall awesome than it ever was. Finding truth is not a matter of choosing which one is right (prayer or scripture). Since God is not a liar, answers to prayer that come from His Holy Spirit have to go together/line up WITH His word.
“You are concerned that Mormons lean too much on spiritual guidance and not enough on scripture, particularly the Bible. Is that correct?”
No, that is not what I was saying. Not “leaning” but “choosing.” We are told to test or try things like spirits, prophets and teachers (even my leaders and yours) because some will be false. However, not so w/ God's word – it is given as the standard of truth. It is the spirits we prove or test, not God's word. In fact, that is how we test the spirits (or teachers or prophets) we compare them to God's word. His word is a hammer, a rock, more powerful than a sword, a lamp to our feet, true, and is used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. Therefore, we test the spirit (burning in bosom) w/ His word, not the other way around. God was so brilliant to set it up like this or we could go about “choosing” whatever tickled our fancy. There has to be a standard.
Did you catch my question I asked you? Maybe you are you politely ignoring it or would rather steer the conversation. I will attempt to answer all 3 questions you asked me. I am going to ponder it more and dig in next post.
*On a personal note, so you know where I am coming from: I didn't leave Mormonism for some egregious sin or offense. I loved the church, I loved being a Mormon. I still love the Mormon people. I wanted it to be true. I still held on to Mormonism for a long time despite discovering some HARD evidences against it. It took an act of God to bring me to my knees in humility and submission to Him. Hard, hard circumstances. Then, I finally experienced His washing and regeneration, and infinite love. In that turning to Him no matter what, in brokenness and submission, I experienced new birth (I didn't even know that term at the time until I found it in the Bible later – but I knew what it was after I experienced it). It was terrifying to think of abandoning Mormonism! But God doesn't give a spirit of fear, but power, love and a sound mind. Don't think I one day walked away because I wanted to or couldn't live the Mormon way. It was with THE most fervent and soul-searching prayer, fasting, and study. The difference now is that it all lines up w/ God's already revealed truth. God guided me into a personal relationship w/ Him that is not dependent on any specific church. As I grew closer to Him, it was He who led me out by showing me more truth about Mormonism, the truth in His word, answers in prayer, and ongoing personal experiences. The thing that changed most is my intense love for Him, like never, ever before in a way I never imagined was possible. No way I ever could have convinced myself of what I know now, let alone you. I only challenge you to re-examine a few things in the light of God's already revealed word. Then trust Him – (like a child)!
It is w/ pleading and a sincere desire that I comment. I hope you can see that it is love that drives me.
I'm curious what you think I believe the real gospel is.
I wasn't trying to sidestep this question; your previous comment just brought up some questions of my own. I really would like to understand where you are coming from.
I assume that your conception of the gospel (“good news”) is much the same as my own: that God sent His Son to suffer for the sins of mankind, and to die for mankind and that all people have a chance to receive salvation by accepting this sacrifice. This is done by putting our faith in Him and His teachings.
Is that what you believe?
do you really need to pray for guidance when God has clearly spoken though?
I certainly agree with you that most people don't require God's additional spiritual direction to keep them from murder or adultery, but not every personal dilemma is black and white. What does the Bible specifically say about voting for Ron Paul? How much is too much to spend on a house? Who among my friends is in need and what can I do for them?
The Bible provides some good guidelines and principles to questions like these, but they are not decisions the prophets have “clearly spoken” about. This is the arena I find the Holy Spirit's guidance to be indispensable because His answers are personal and tailored to the circumstances I'm in.
Thaddeus,
I love your explanation on the gray areas – like voting for Ron Paul (big smile on my face). Well said, true!
However, that doesn't solve the problem of His already given, clear direction (false prophet example above) that comes in conflict w/ your personal belief system. Two different things.
It seems like our conversation has branched out. some looming questions. 1. Do I agree w/ your statement of what the gospel is? 2. Where in the Bible I learn that its words are inerrant? 3. Where do you read that the record is closed (incapable of being supplemented)? 4. When and why did God stop calling prophets (mortals who serve as his mouthpiece on earth, including apostles)?
I will give you what I got on question 2,3, and 4 here because the topic is the Bible after all. I'll take question 1 over to the gospel post you linked to above.
2. “Where in the Bible I learn that its words are inerrant?”
The books of the Bible, as they were originally written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit , were 100% inerrant, accurate, authoritative, and true.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
The phrase “[is] given by inspiration of God” in the original Greek is theopneustos or “God-breathed.”
2 Peter 1:20-21 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
It is assumed in the verses that God is true however.
We also have apostles quoting New Testament verses and calling them Scripture. Jesus was always referring to Old Testament Scripture and He seemed to trust it. He would rebuke the religious teachers of the time by saying things like: have you not read? You are a teacher and you do not know?… Also when being tempted He said “It is written” all three times.
Heavenly Father is so good to us by not only giving us His word via the Bible, but graciously provides other means to confirm the reliability of His word.
This confirmation is external (geography, history, language, manuscript, dead sea scrolls, archeology, the Jewish race, outside same era historians, and more) and internal (fulfilled prophecy, eye witness testimony, and God's very own promises with His excellent faithful and unchanging character as surety).
But as reliable as man's testimony is, God's is much more reliable. Here is what He has to say about it:
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Will God do what He says He will do?)
Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.(Is God ABLE to do what He says He will do?)
(What does the Lord say He will do?)
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(How important does God view His word?)
Psalm 138:2 …for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
And John 17:17 …thy word is truth.
(How should we treat God's word from the Bible that He said and would not allow to fade or wither?)
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
3. Where do you read that the record is closed (incapable of being supplemented)?
Wow, a topic too long to cover entirely now! I have studied enough to satisfy me. However, by the questions you ask, I can tell you have already delved into this issue also and the answer I give, you have probably heard.
Briefly, you know the whole Revelation scripture about not adding to God's word. Technically, one could say it only applies to the specific book of Revelation, but in the spirit of the meaning of that scripture and other verses that convey a similar meaning, I think it does apply to books outside what we have in the Bible. Also, given the topic and location of the book of Revelation (the end), only adds to the validity of excluding other books. I can't think of another specific verse off the top of my head about a closed canon besides the common ones we already know. It's like this: I tell my kid, “you are in trouble, don't leave your room.” 10 minutes later, they are out of their room. They say, “well I didn't leave my room for an entire 9 minutes.” Technically, they didn't break the rules, but that's not the intent of the punishment.
There is no reason to believe that God would give further revelation to add to His Word. The Bible begins with the very beginning of humanity—Genesis—and ends with the end of humanity as we know it—Revelation.
Amos 3:7 says, “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” In fulfillment of this, we learn from Mark's account that when Jesus tells some of His own about end times, He finishes by saying, “But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you ALL things.” Basically, we got it all, beginning to end.
Earlier you alluded to “missing” books of the Bible. This is another topic entirely: What makes a book Scripture?
4. When and why did God stop calling prophets (mortals who serve as his mouthpiece on earth, including apostles)?
(*I got a lot of help on this topic and a good portion is cut and paste).
Għaliex? Smart Alec answer: Because He wanted to. Seriously though, He is God, and it all works according to His plan. Who are we to judge God? Instead of saying, “wouldn't it make sense that God would have them today like in times past?” We SHOULD say, “what is God's will? What does He have to say about it?”
Apostles: in a broad sense the Christian church has apostles or “one sent forth [to proclaim Christ].” In fact “missionary” is the Latin translation of the Greek word “apostle.” However, the apostles in Ephesians 4:11 is specifically talking about the 12 hand picked by Jesus himself. They had to be eye witnesses of Jesus' ministry and resurrection (II Peter 1:16; 3:2, I John 1:1-4; Jude 17-18). It is these who laid the foundation which the building (body of Christ/church) is built. There are only “twelve apostles of the Lamb” and they are with Him now. Their names will be in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). I suppose if the apostles in Mormonism are equivalent to the foundational 12, there would have to be a whole lot more foundations in His city with all their names – but no, only 12.
Plus, speaking of apostles, their calling and work were so unique that no man today could do what they did (eg be eyewitnesses of Christ's entire earthly ministry – Acts 1:21-22; 10:39, 41-42; II Peter 1:15-18; I John 1:1-5; be personally called by Christ – Matt. 4:18-22; Mark 1:16- 20; Luke 6:13; John 1:43; Eph. 4:11; be taught the gospel by Christ during His earthly ministry – Matt. 20:17; Mark 4:34; Luke 6:20).
LDS claim Eph. 2:20 and 4:11 shows the necessity of prophets and apostles today. The New Testament does speak of prophets in Acts 11:27-28, 13:1, 15:32, and 21:10. But, the word “prophet” refers to any proclaimer of God's truth in the New Testament. In that sense the church today does have living prophets on the earth. But, in the sense of the Old Testament prophetic office like Isaiah or Jeremiah, Jesus declared, “The law and prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it” (Luke 16:16; see also Matt. 11:13). The Bible also says, “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son” (Heb. 1:1-2).
Patty, thank you for your words. I am sorry I have not had time until now to sit and make a response.
2. Where does the Bible say it is inerrant?
I appreciate all you said about God's word being trustworthy as it was “God-breathed” to His prophets. I believe that, too. The scriptures you cite from 2 Timothy and 2 Peter are wonderful.
My question is more about the trustworthiness of the very human process of transmission of scripture from the author to my modern Bible. The scriptures you cited that deal most directly with this, (“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”) are not clearly referring to a book or a set of books. I can see how you might make that interpretation, but I don't see the inerrantist argument being motivated by those scriptures. See this short article to see where I'm coming from.
3. Where do you read that the record is closed (incapable of being supplemented)?
I was surprised when you quoted Amos 3:7. This is the scripture Mormons point to in defending our need for a modern prophet.
Your points on this topic weren't terribly convincing to me. If I were protestant, the reason I would believe in a closed canon wouldn't be because of the scriptures in Revelation (prophets preaching after Deuteronomy 4 –including Jesus– didn't seem to have a problem adding to the Bible), but simply because nothing had been added to the Bible. After so many centuries of heaven's silence I might resign myself to the same conclusion. Do you have similar feelings?
Even as a Mormon, I have wondered why such an extended prophet-less era happened, but I am thrilled to know that God speaks to us through prophets once again.
4. When and why did God stop calling prophets (mortals who serve as his mouthpiece on earth, including apostles)?
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. I'll sum up what you said and you can explain it if I get it wrong (my thoughts in parenthesis):
When did the calling of prophets cease?
John the Baptist was the last prophet. The formal calling of prophet ceased with Jesus' ministry.
Apostles are not prophets. Apostles were a one-time calling for the original twelve (or 13, including both Matthias and Judas, or 15 including Paul and Barnabas ).
People called prophets in Acts are not really prophets (this proposition confuses me with the whole inerrancy assumption; besides, my main definition of prophet in this context is a mortal with authority from God to write scripture, and I believe you would include at least Paul, Peter, John, and James in that list; I should probably have been more explicit with my definition).
Why did the calling of prophets cease?
Because it was God's will. The Bible doesn't really say why.
Is that about right? I would like to talk to you about your specific concerns about Joseph Smith being a false prophet, but I first wanted to look at the groundwork for whether you believe there can be any more prophets. If the Bible plainly told us there are to be no more prophets, then we could easily dismiss any supposed prophet as fraudulent. Unfortunately, the Bible doesn't make that point clear, and Jesus even warns us against “false prophets” instead of “any prophets,” which I find interesting. Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Thaddeus,
Quickly -
2. Bible inerrant. Read the link and see the problem. Definitions. We could get lost in a forest of word definitions and lose track of the whole point. Let's talk about the real implications here. Trustworthiness. I think the Bible is trustworthy. You may or may not, I find a rainbow of Mormon thought on this: from – No, in fact how can we even trust one verse , to – it has some very profitable things.
In your reaction to the Bible, you remind me of my son. For example, I tell him, “Don't do that.” He continues to do that. He justifies it by saying I was not specific what “that” was. It bothers me that verse after verse speaks of how God views His word and how we should view His word. He holds it higher than His name – if it's that important to Him I believe He is more than capable of preserving it and even directing the compilation of His words into one unit we call the Bible. How kind and loving of Him. It is so important to establish the trustworthiness of the Bible because of what it says; the nature of God, Jesus, nature of man, salvation, and so forth. Do we take God at His word? It is too convenient to run into something that doesn't agree w/ your preset doctrine to justify it [like my son does]: Well sure, but can we trust the men? Or that must have been one of those mistakes in translation. Or was it really this set of books? Here is my child-like view. God said He would keep His word and by that same supernatural power He has. I'll go w/ that. I think on this point we will have to agree to disagree. I'm going w/ the Bible. You of course are at liberty to look for ways around it. Reminds me when the serpent in the garden questioned and deceived Eve – did God really say that ? I always find it curious that a group so adamant about being called Christian is also so creative in ways to discount the Bible. It is critical in Mormonism to treat the Bible like this for a good reason. Mormonism can't stand if the Bible is inerrant/ or to the point, trustworthy.
Speaking of trustworthy scripture…As a Mormon, I was absolutely crushed when I was given a gift of an old edition of the D&C. I can't remember which edition it was. It so shook my testimony, I ended up throwing it out. Some things I vaguely remember: one whole revelation was removed, many, many changes- very significant in altering the original meaning too, some original writings talked about divining rods and other “magical” practices – all that language removed.
Thaddeus and Patty,
I've been following your conversation for a while. I hope you don't mind if I put my two cents in. Thaddeus- That article you referred to was very well written. I think that it's more than just definitions, but it does get to the core of Patty's question.
The Bible is the word of God. No one is denying that. LDS folks study and love the Bible. You know that the Mormon church also has the Book of Mormon and living prophets today. They are also God's word. They point us to Christ, the only one who can save us.
Having a prophet today can also help us to further our understanding of the scriptures and help us to know exactly what God meant. This clarification is vital in the world today. People need God's word more than ever, and there is also so much confusion. It's easy to see the effects of different interpretations of the Bible; that's why there are so many different churches out there, all preaching from the same Bible.
Patty, from what you described (with the “divining rods” and such) that's from the Book of Commandments.
Here is a quote I liked from FAIR about changes the D&C :
“The Saints have never believed in inerrant prophets or inerrant scripture. The editing and modification of the revelations was never a secret; it was well known to the Church of Joseph's day, and it has been discussed repeatedly in modern Church publications, as well as extensive studies in Masters' and PhD theses at BYU.
If Joseph could receive the Doctrine and Covenants by revelation, then he could also receive revelation to improve, modify, revise, and expand his revelatory product. The question remains the same—was Joseph Smith a prophet? If he was, then his action is completely legitimate. If he was not, then it makes little difference whether his pretended revelations were altered or not.”
Steve,
Hi, and good to hear your input. Let me first talk about your quote from FAIR. I was your typical Mormon. I was active and dedicated. I never heard about the changes to D&C until someone showed me the forbidden anti literature. I was under the (clearly false) impression that Joseph got the revelation from God, it was written down, compiled and that's how we got D&C. While the scholars who hold impressive degrees might have known about the changes in D&C, I find it hard to believe your average lay member has any idea. Many of the current lay members I have spoken w/ are even unsure if Joseph was a polygamist let alone the changes w/ D&C. Honestly, which common member in the LDS church has time to adequately review those extensively studied master's and PhD thesis from BYU, let alone the basic BOM and Bible? Even if the church didn't try to keep it a secret or not is irrelevant. I find it disingenuous to fault Christians on their reliance of the Bible, yet hold such low standards for the reliability of D&C given the radical changes it has undergone.
Here is the concern I have w/ relying on FAIR for doctrine. They have no authority to receive revelation for the church. They say things in complete contrast to the modern day LDS prophets and apostles. If they could speak w/ any authority for the LDS church, then the whole “needing modern prophets” argument falls flat. Example: your quote above, “The Saints have never believed in inerrant prophets or inerrant scripture.” Really? That is not what I was taught. Compare FAIR w/ D&C 1:38 “whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” or D&C 21:5 “For his [Smith's] word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.” President W. Woodruf, “I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” There is more, but you get the point.
It doesn't have to be so complicated. God said if a prophet says something in His name and it doesn't come to pass – not a prophet of God. Also, introducing a different God, (one who used to be a man), would qualify someone as a false prophet. Just trust what God says. God isn't interested in fancy degrees to know Him, rather faith… trust Him like a child would his father. God said it so plainly… listen.
I fixed the link to the FAIR article above. The one I had posted was directed to the article in French. Sorry about that.
There was a great article in the Ensign that you might have missed in 2009. Elder Jenson talks about the Book of Commandments and the early revelations of the church. Under the subheading “Preparing the Manuscript Revelation Books for Publication during Joseph Smith's Time”, Elder Jenson describes the changes. They are not “radical changes” as you supposed, and as you read the Ensign article you'll see why changes were made. Anyways, this is also a good Ensign article to help “lay members” like you and I to understand the PhD's thesis papers.
I haven't seen a single thing that FAIR has stated that is in “complete contrast” to the prophets and apostles, or even remotely opposing their teachings. Please refer to the link above (again, sorry about the broken link earlier) and it will do a better job at describing what I was trying to say about inerrant prophets in my previous post. Sorry, I didn't explain the context for the quote more thoroughly.
We both do agree, that FAIR has no revelation for the church. (I quote them because they are able to articulate things better than I can.) And we both see the need for a modern day prophet to receive inspiration from God to direct his church.
The question remains the same—was Joseph Smith a prophet? And as you know, the answer to this can be found without a masters or PhD degree. It's found by praying to God and asking him. We know through the power of the Holy Ghost that he is a prophet of God, and in turn, that the Book of Mormon is true. These both point us, in conjunction with the Bible, to Christ, who is our Savior.
I always find it curious that a group so adamant about being called Christian is also so creative in ways to discount the Bible.
We are not looking for ways to discount the Bible. Mormonism stands up just fine with the Bible. (So do the millions of Christians who don't believe the Bible is precisely inerrant.) I read and trust and love the Bible.
I just don't think we should make ourselves fools by declaring it to be more than it is and more than it claims to be. The Book of Revelation is valuable because it was written by someone with authority and revelation from God. John had the authority. His book contains doctrines and teachings that are profitable and sacred, but the book itself has no priesthood authority, and importantly, it can't answer questions or clarify its meaning any further than it does.
This was a theme in Christ's own ministry. Lacking prophetic pronouncements (until John the Baptist began to upset their balance), the Pharisees relied on the Torah to explicate God's view of everything from knot-tying to Sabbath-day healing. The Old Testament was their infallible, authoritative source. They knew it forwards and backwards in its original Hebrew and could recite it verbatim.
Why then did the Pharisees, so intimate with the Holy Word, react negatively when the Word Himself came to them? Jesus cited scripture, but His teachings were not the same as theirs. He overturned long-standing religious laws (see Matthew 5 ). He introduced a God they thought blasphemous: one with a mortal Son. He had an additional source beyond the Torah: divine revelation. “He taught them as one having authority” ( Matthew 7:29 ).
Thaddeus,
“but the book [Bible] itself has no priesthood authority…”
I've never heard that argument before that the Bible has no priesthood authority. I guess I don't get your point… are you saying a book even has that capability? Are you saying that is what I am claiming? Certainly not – but that gets us into priesthood and a whole other can of worms. Here is the simple truth I know:
God will do what He says He will do -Numbers 23:19
God is able to do what He says He will do -Luke1:37
God will not let His word wither of fade -Isaiah 40:8
So if trusting that God will and is able to keep His word from fading or withering is foolish, then I'm guilty. As far as the authority of God's word (the kind that never faded or withered – the word we had long before Smith), here is what I know: God's word written or spoken is…
vera John 17:17
a guide or lamp unto my feet – Psalm 119:105
alive and powerful -Hebrews 4:12
a sword -Hebrews 4:12
will not return void -Isaiah 55:11
like a fire and a hammer -Jeremiah 23:29
revered by God Himself even above His own name -Psalm 138:2
able to transform the mind and heart
“He [Jesus] had an additional source beyond the Torah”
Not really “additional.” Jesus was the source – behind the Torah and during His life and now. Of course He had authority, He is the source of all authority! The scribes and Pharisees questioned it too – Who could forgive sins but God and Jesus openly forgave sins. (Luke 5:21)
“He overturned long-standing religious laws”
It wasn't that He overturned the laws in Matthew 5 -the beatitudes. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” – Matthew 5:17. (See, He came to fulfill prophecy and fulfill the law by living the perfect life that we couldn't so that when we accept His gift, His righteousness becomes our righteousness.) Rather, He raised the bar and standard of the law. – You have heard it said, thou shalt not kill, but I say unto you that whoever is unjustly angry shall be in danger of hellfire. See, He took the law and intensified it, showed us that it is in reality a heart issue. Same with adultery- guilty if you have lusted. He took it as an outside observance and shined the light of truth on the source: our hearts. Why did He do that? The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict us of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9, Galatians 3:24). It was not to produce righteousness in us by the observing it. (Romans 3:21, Romans 10:5, Galatians 2:21, Galatians 3:21, Philippians 3:9)
“Why then did the Pharisees, so intimate with the Holy Word, react negatively when the Word Himself came to them?”
(Most had that reaction), but not all. Yeah, not only did they “react negatively,” but they flat out rejected and killed Him. God was incredibly patient with His people, Israel, with warning after warning that they not turn from Him. After so much rebellion, and refusing the prophets, they suffered the consequences- as prophesied in Isaiah 6:9-10. They would hear and not understand, they would see and not perceive. Jesus explains the phenomenon of what you asked above in Matthew 13:14 that “…by hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive.” Jesus said, this was a fulfillment to Isaiah's prophecy. This same principle can apply today. If a person hears the good news about grace again and again; then continually refuses it through self-justification, manipulation of words, denial or flat our rejection; they will eventually have hard hearts and ears and eyes that do not understand or perceive.
“I read and trust and love the Bible.”
Then Thaddeus, why do you still follow Smith? Why, when God made it plain in His word how to spot a false prophet, do you continue to say Smith was true? Why do you put your thoughts above God's in this matter? That doesn't seem like trusting the Bible.
I am not here to point the finger of blame or scorn. Rather it's w/ boldness and pleading that I beg you turn to only Him. Put the full weight of your trust in Him and what He has already said and done. Everyone has a sin problem and His sacrifice was final and complete to pay for it. You don't add to your redemption by your actions because what Jesus did was sufficient. You don't earn your way to Him through ordinances or works. You just accept what Jesus has already done for you apart from your goodness because He died for us while we were yet sinners. As a reasonable response to gaining eternal life, you submit your life to Him and get to perform many good works; to His glory. There is eternal life, abundant life, clear sight/understanding, and all blessings in Him – apart from any specific church or organization; Him alone.
I have been watching this conversation and it looks like it has finally reached the inevitable point of passioned disagreement. I was once instructed by a wise teacher of world religions that when two devote religious groups come together they have three choices: 1) Convert the other 2) Kill the other or 3) ignore the other. In America we are pretty good at #3 because we separate our religious lives from our working daily lives and are held together as a people by other cultural conventions. However when we get into a heartfelt conversation of our deepest differences it may begin as a scholarly congenial conversation, but as we dig deeper and push harder we just have to come to the conclusion that the other person is crazy….And start expressing it that way.
While it is the stated purpose of this site to express the belief system of the LDS church, it just isn't that easy (as the long discussion has made evident) The basic belief of the LDS church regarding scripture is stated in the 8th Article of Faith: We believe the Book of Mormon to be word of God, we also believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.
Patty can not believe the Book of Mormon because she doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. She also takes um-bridge with the “as far as it is translated correctly” clause. Thaddeus, on the other hand believes that Joseph was a prophet and that therefore the Book of Mormon is the word on God and also that while the Bible is the word of God its many translations have resulted in some mistakes or omissions.
Might I suggest that neither of you will probably ever convince and convert the other; So I'm afraid you'll either have to ignore the other or somebody's going to get killed.