What Do Mormons Believe About Hell?
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch’intrate –Dante’s Inferno
Q. What do Mormons believe about hell, and who is going there?
Short answer: We don’t believe in the traditional view of “hell” as a place of never ending torment for those who don’t accept Jesus in this world. Hell is a temporary state of terrible anguish and pain for the wicked, but with very few exceptions, everyone will eventually accept Jesus Christ and receive some degree of glory. Our belief that everyone eventually gets the same chance to accept the gospel, and that hell doesn’t last forever, makes the Mormon doctrine of the afterlife one of the most hopeful and merciful in all Christianity.
Long answer: I wrote this article because I’ve found that people assume we believe in the traditional hellfire and damnation, and that causes a lot of misunderstanding. For instance, we claim to be the only religion with the “fullness of the gospel,” and that you have to be baptized by someone authorized by God (only in the LDS church) in order to be saved. People hear that and assume that we therefore believe that everyone else is “going to hell” in the sense that, say, Evangelical Christians would use the phrase. That isn’t our belief, however.
What is hell? The word hell in the bible is the English translation of the Greek word hades or the Hebrew word sheol. It originally referred to a temporary dwelling of spirits of all dead people, both righteous and wicked (1), and not solely as a place of punishment (this agrees in general with Mormon theology). The word hell didn’t evolve the sense of being a place of everlasting punishment until later.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a place of suffering, however. We believe that when we die, our spirits go to a place that we call the Spirit World to await the resurrection and judgment. Furthermore, the Spirit World is divided into two general states: paradise and prison, depending on how you have lived your life (see Megan’s two-part summary of the afterlife). In the Spirit World, everyone gets an equal chance (if they didn’t have it on earth) to hear and accept the gospel. Unrepentant people will still suffer, and we still refer to their suffering as “hell.”
What is hell like? The torment of the wicked isn’t described in much detail in the Bible, but King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon taught that the knowledge of our guilt would be our torment:
Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. (Mosiah 2:38)
Alma (also in the Book of Mormon) wrote that we will not be able to look up to God, “and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence” (Alma 12:14)
It’s important to know that this suffering, while agonizing, will not last forever. Of those who would eventually inherit the lowest degree of glory, Joseph Smith taught:
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. . .These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fullness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 76:103, 106)
What about the sons of perdition? We believe that one day “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess” that Jesus is the Christ. With a few exceptions everyone will be redeemed. Death and Hell will deliver up their captive spirits (2 Ne 9:12, Rev 20:13), all men will be resurrected and be brought forth to be judged and receive a degree of glory. The few exceptions I mentioned are called “sons of perdition.”
Sons of perdition are the truly evil. They are those that want no part in salvation. They deny the truth and defy God’s power, and crucify the Savior unto themselves, and put him to an open shame. They are the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord (D&C 76:31-38). They do not inherit a glory at all, but rather dwell with the devil and his angels forever. Their state is sometimes referred to as “hell” also, or “outer darkness,” though both of those words also refer to the temporary state. It’s hard to be a son of perdition. Really hard. Cain and Judas hard. For all intents and purposes, it’s not even an option for the majority of humanity.
If everyone will just be saved, why does anyone’s conversion even matter? I thought you’d never ask! It matters for two reasons: 1) The wicked will still suffer. A lot. Enough that no amount of raucous fun you could have on earth would ever possibly be worth it. And 2) There are very different degrees of glory that you will inherit forever, based on how much you were “willing to receive.” But that’s a topic for a different day.
(1) See Frederic W. Farrar, Eternal Hope (1892), xxxvi-xlii
Thanks for showing me this site. Great article! It’s a great reminder of how merciful God’s plan really is.
Pretty much the best explanation ever.
Great post!
Great post! I knew the Mormon conception of hell and the afterlife was different from Catholic and Protestant theology, but I’ve been curious about the details.
This is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible also teaches that there shall be nothing added to or taken from it, hence the Book of Mormon. Christians in Utah pray that the Mormons will come to him before it is too late. Hell is a real place for those that don’t except him before they leave this earth.
God Bless
Denise,
You’re right. It’s no secret that our full doctrine of the afterlife doesn’t come from the Bible alone. How could it? The Bible gives scant detail about hell. It mentions both “hades” or “sheol”, the temporary state of the departed spirits (Luke 16:23), and an “everlasting punishment” (Matt 25:46), or “gehenna” (Matt 23:33). In the New Testament, they are two different places. There is some imagery of lakes of fire and the like, and a few examples of the kinds of people that would end up in those states, but other than that the doctrine is pretty unspecific. (Hence the widely variant interpretations of what hell is like throughout Christianity). And though you couldn’t possibly construct our belief of the afterlife from the Bible alone, it agrees pretty well.
For further reading about hell from the New Testament, I highly recommend the wikipedia articles entitled “Hell in Christian beliefs”, “Hades in Christianity”, and “Gehenna”.
Good article. From someone not totally familiar with the religion, I have a quick question regarding the levels of salvation / prison vs paradise. Where is this documented in LDS literature? Doctrine and Covenants? Could someone please provide the source so I can read up on it further? Thanks.
Sure thing, MH.
The best place by far to read about the three degrees of glory and the ultimate fate of everyone after the resurrection is in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 76. I would start there.
As for the spirit world (paradise/prison): a lot of it is pieced together from various references throughout the scriptures. But for a description of the spirit world (prison/paradise), I think the best place is in the Book of Mormon, Alma chapter 40, starting about verse 6. Also Doctrine and Covenants section 138.
.
You can get to these places online at http://www.lds.org/scriptures
Also, under the “study helps” there’s a topical guide, where you can look up terms like “hell”, “paradise”, “spirit world”, or “spirits in prison” and it will give you references to scriptures for those.
Thanks for reading, and don’t hesitate to ask if you have any more questions.
MH, there is another article that talks about this on this site too–the post is called “Who Gets to Be Saved” and there are a several linked references at the bottom about those things too.
First off I’m non denominational Christian. I’m married to a mormon. I cannot control what he believes, he’s been a mormon his whole life. What I can say is I think,and have had this same conversation with my husband,this doctrine is an easy way to ease a sinning person’s mind…what about Luke chapter 16 verse 19-31? I mean Joseph Smith totally overlooked that one huh? He makes it clear after death there is no getting out of hell. And notice verse 24 he says “I’m in this flame”. Oh wait it gets better Abraham answered and said in verse 26 “and besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come from here to you will NOT be able, and that none may cross over from there to us”. (Read all of Luke 16 to get the full effect)MMMM….sounds to me like there is a hell that has fire to it and no one, not a bishop or priest or ANYONE…not even Abraham…can help you once you die. But this doctrine I’m sure was a great comfort to a man who had a bunch of wives, which the true word of God directly states is a sin. J.S. was special to God jus like anyone eles…he wasn’t anyone any greater than you or me…so to think that God changed his mind for a man, that’s insane. He did not recieve any great revelation, he wanted to please his flesh and at the same time ease his concious. And thousands of ppl have bought into that deception…if you don’t believe there are false teachers refer to 2 Peter chapter 2. Read all of it…all the scriptures work together. You can pick and chose if you want…but I don’t suggest it…I didn’t do this to make anyone mad…I did it hoping to help someone understand eternity is FOREVER….Speaking of eternity…you guys must of overlooked Revelations…it gives a very vivid picture of eternity and no where in there does it say righteous ppl will go to “spirit prison” and preach to anyone.There are lot’s of things I could touch on..but I don’t have time…but I do wanna say the whole “men get other wives after they die” thing is so funny. God is a just God…as matter of fact Jesus came to earth and lived in a part of the world where women were dogged…the men stepped all over them…In all accounts I read he never talked down to or mistreated them…in my opinion NO WOMAN who Loves their husband would ever be ok with sharing him with another woman…so the thought is just so funny that Jesus himself…the Savior…said in Mark chapter 12…the King James version…verses 24 and 25…”Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? verse 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.” mmmm…how do you break that down again…I mean to fit ya’ll. Like I said I could go on all day about this stuff but the only thing ya’ll can say is J.S got “new revelation”! I know that when my wonderful husband whom I Love and respect, dies he will have no other wives!!! My Jesus reassured me of that! And FYI…neither will the rest of ya! well I pray for everyone in the name of Jesus to have peace and I pray for the truth to set you free!
Lesa,
I appreciate you coming on the site. Your comment is very long, so I’ll only respond to the parts that have to do with our view of hell.
I’m not sure if you read the section on the Sons of Perdition, but we do believe in a state of neverending punishment, which we sometimes call “hell,” but in our church we more often use the term “outer darkness.” What’s interesting is that when the Bible uses the word “hell” (like in Luke 16), it’s a translation of the Greek word “hades,” and is explicitly a transitory place. I’ll just quote from the wikipedia article on “Hell in Christian Beliefs”:
“The New Testament also uses the Greek word hades, usually to refer to the temporary abode of the dead (eg. Acts 2:31; Revelation 20:13).[7] Only one passage describes hades as a place of torment, the parable of Lazarus and Dives (Luke 16:19-31). Jesus here depicts a wicked man suffering fiery torment in hades, which is contrasted with the bosom of Abraham, and explains that it is impossible to cross over from one location to the other. Some scholars believe that this parable reflects the intertestamental Jewish view of hades (or sheol) as containing separate divisions for the wicked and righteous.[12][7] In Revelation 20:13-14 hades is itself thrown into the “lake of fire” after being emptied of the dead.”
So even Luke 16 describes hell in a way that is pretty consistent with the Mormon belief: a temporary spirit world that is divided between the righteous and the wicked.
Ok let me ask you this what if your wrong? What if there is a chance that Jesus meant just what he said…what if there is no preaching to the dead who are “in a place of torment”. What if its a literal fire that never ends. What will you do then seeing thousands of ppl believe that? Because teaching that carries accountability. The Bible is very clear in the book of Revelations that there is a lake of fire that burns 4ever….Satan isn’t working for nothing…he’s rackin up souls everyday….it’s not a game….Revelations chapter 21 verse 8…very clear no translation needed…I go to church where they bring up translations out of Greek and Hebrew…this life is but a vapor….me and my husband talk about this a lot and I have decided to read the Bible all the way through…yep even the Mormon bible….I would never place my soul in the hands of a man who very apparently wrote the word to fit his “wants”. The things you believe prove that…and I’m investing in a Greek-Hebrew dictionary and taking notes…if I’m wrong,I have no problem saying I am.But God is all truth and the Bible is infallible…it has been tested and broken down and torn apart…I believe it 100%. God didn’t need J.S. to come along so he could give “new revelation” matter of fact I think J.S was a con who wanted to make a name for himself…this is not anything I haven’t told my husband….we have had our discussions on these things and instead of reading the Bible for yourselves you go online and look up what other Mormons b4 you said or what they believed…I would never do that. By the way God didn’t have sex with Mary for her to conceive, the Bible says the angel told Mary the Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would conceive . She was still a virgin. There is no wife of God or great mother in the sky…God is not flesh and bone he is a spirit…He was made flesh through Jesus…if you don’t believe me read the Bible…and btw Moses never saw God’s face..yeah…that seems weird to me to seeing the Bible in Exodus chapter 33 verse 20 he (God) says “no man can see my face and live” …funny one of the two ppl is a liar…God or J.S….my guess J.S. is! Because after he “claimed” he saw God he lived. verse 23 again states the same thing. Funny how when Jesus was baptized all he got was the Father’s voice out of Heaven saying ” this is my son in whom I am well pleased” but J.S was wondering in the woods, like young boys do and God appeared…wonder that!!! I’m really not trying to argue…and will not but my hope is that someone get’s a spiritual clue! Do not be deceived! Research it for you not anyone eles!!! Thanks for the response and being nice…that’s kool! Peace of Christ be with you!
Lesa,
It’s an interesting question you bring up: “what if you’re wrong?” It’s something everyone should ask. I think the answer to the question just depends on who’s right. (If the atheists or the Buddhists are right, I think I’m still ok, for instance). One of my main points in writing this article is to show that we believe in a God of mercy who doesn’t condemn well-intentioned good people to burn for all eternity just for not believing exactly the right thing on earth, but prepares a way for all his children to learn the truth eventually and choose to accept it.
As for the fifty some odd other topics you’ve mentioned, if I tried to systematically address them my response would be way too long for a comment. And most of them have been addressed elsewhere on the site anyway. It seems from the things you bring up, though, that you don’t really understand exactly what we believe about those. Maybe you’ve heard them from sources that aren’t Mormon?
I don’t want to dismiss any of what you’re saying, though, they’re all valid questions. Is there a particular issue that troubles you about our beliefs the most, that you want us to address? Also, feel free to submit a question on the main page, or you can email me personally at mixterhealey@gmail.com
Lesa, I’m glad that you found our little site. Take some time to read a few articles and get to know us better.
I just have one request for future comments: will you please take the time to use paragraphs and complete sentences? It’s very hard to read your writing.
Welcome to the site, Lesa. I just wanted to address a couple of points that you brought up. I’m interested to hear what you think we believe about the parable you referenced with Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. I think you might be mistaken in what you perceive as our beliefs.
We don’t believe that priests or elders or even prophets could have crossed that great chasm between heaven and hell for others or themselves. Only Jesus Christ could. And he did. If you don’t believe that he conquered death AND hell, then what is the point of being a Christian? At the time he taught the parable, there was no bridge between the two and the people who had been in hell had been there a LONG time. But Christ provided the way out when he died and resurrected. Continuing revelation fills in the gaps of what happened AFTER he died, because actually, he continued to live and teach and do His Father’s work. It is fascinating to read about. So there is no incongruity in our beliefs and that story. We just believe that Christ made amazing things possible–like salvation, resurrection and release from Spirit prison (or hell–which is a real place 1 Peter 3:18-19).
That is why we love Him so much.
As far as polygamy goes, that seems to be a real concern for you. You may be relieved to know that Mormons don’t really even think about polygamy. It just doesn’t come up. We don’t practice it, we don’t teach it, we (at least, I) don’t expect that it will be an issue for us in the future. It is a part of our history and even if we don’t understand it completely, we do believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that it was commanded. We’re cool with it. No apologies for doing what God commanded. For more information from a Mormon perspective, check out this article: Ben’s polygamy article
Lesa,
Your version of Hell is a scary thought and fairly arbitrary in its application. If one has to accept Jesus to be saved from eternal damnation and fire, then what happens to all those people who weren’t privileged enough to even hear of Christ and all those poor children who died before understanding enough to accept Christ as their personal savior? If we are all God’s children, it seems that he’s condemning the majority of them to his hell, not a very loving father.
Great article, Dave.
Last year I had begun a study of the Bible to try and gain a better understanding of topics such as the end times, and of hell (Sheol/Hades), and of the after life or resurrection of the dead. The book “Charting the End Times” by Tim Lahaye has been helpful to me because of the way it presents the material.
But there remained a number of things that I could never seem to “close” with my understanding (i.e. I could never seem to connect all of the dots). Then I happened to be in Salt Lake City for business (a very unusual occurence looking back) and I decided to visit the Temple grounds. I realized that I barely knew anything about Mormon doctrine except what I had heard others say (which, by the way, I know now is almost always wrong). So I decided to educate myself and bought the book “Church History for Latter-day Saint Families” and purchased a copy of the Book of Mormon (with D&C and Pearl of Great Price).
To make a longer story short, I have found the Book of Mormon (along with the other portions) to be a great compliment to the Bible and the teachings of the Bible – and I have yet to see where the Mormon theology is not in harmony with, wholly complimentary, and further explanatory of the Bible’s teaching. Is it completely without errors – likely not (JS said, “And now if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God…” It has helped me to “connect the dots” and answered some of the questions that the Bible has so far left me unable to close (not that the Bible is necesarily insufficient – I am the one that is lacking in knowledge and understanding and in need of help to put this stuff together!).
I would encourage those who are critical of Mormons not to have “hardened hearts”. About Joseph Smith and this notion of him being a prophet, I have asked myself, “Why is it so hard to believe that God could choose a person in our time (relatively speaking) to reveal additional hidden truths and knowledge about the history of the world, and about His Son Jesus Christ and the Gospel and His plan for redemption?” And they did to Joseph Smith exactly as they did to the Old Testament prophets.
i wonder if this article was written by LDS members like me. hell is just a holding place till we understand and go with god. it isn’t an everlasting place of torment but a place to relize that god is the rightous choice and the best one at that. if any of you out there belive that we are the wrong church because of what your freinds told you. i have one thing to say. what would you do if you would want to learn more about the prodestant or baptist religion you would go to a preacher of the church why not with the LDS church why not ask the bishop.
If you say that the Bible is not infallible and you say that God doesn’t have the power to draw his elect to him while they are on this earth, then you say God is not omnipotent and in control. The bible teaches that if anyone comes, even an angel from Heaven and preaches another Jesus or another Gospel other than the one that Paul and his followers preached, then he is to be accursed. I am pretty sure that that Greek word in the bible meant eternal damnation. I think anyone who follows the Mormon blasphemous teachings that conflict with the Word of God on SOooo many points should be really scared because they are headed straight for Hell at this point (forever). Seek the God of the bible and repent. Seek God while he can be found (while you are alive). Check out the Isaiah scroll found in 1947. It says there is only one God as well. There are not many gods. God is not a liar and will not be mocked. The devil may deceive those already headed for Hell but he will not deceive Jesus’ true sheep. All of you mormons need to pray to God to free you from the delusion you are under – it doesn’t matter if you’re family believes and you are left all alone. They can’t save you. Only the God of the bible can save you. Do not be swept away by false teachings and false prophets.
I agree with Lesa 100%. She is asking that you search the answers for yourself. The Bible talks about false teachers many times. Be not deceived. Thaddeus, are you joking? Your concern is that she use paragraphs and complete sentences? Dave brings up a good point. Even Christians who read only the Bible have varying beliefs. However, The Bible is clear, you choose to accept Jesus before you die or you will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.
To Dave, thank you for the article, it was well stated.
to Lesa, I am sorry for your angst against the LDS church and our beliefs, and the beliefs of your husband. I simply ask you to put yourself in the mind of God. If he is our Father, then would he not love us all? If he is a just God, then would he not give everyone a chance?
I know when I think about these things I have strong emotions about being a parent, even to the 3 children I have, the love for them creates such joy it is overwhelming. To love all the children he has on this earth, both past and present must be an unimaginable amount of love and joy. Why then, would he punish those who have not had a chance to know him? For me, it seems like punishing a child who had just been burnt by a hot iron. Not only is the child in a terrible amount of pain for reasons they know not, but now, their parent is punishing them? That is not love, that is not hope and that is not charity. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16. This sounds to me like God doesn’t want to loose any of his children. Would it not then, make sense for him to give us all a way back to Him? If I had children who where lost in the world, I would do everything in my power to 1) give them their freedom of choice, and 2) get them home to me safely so that I may throw them a feast.
To believe in Christ is not to just say you believe, but it is to do all the things which he preached. You cannot say you believe in Christ yet choose to do only a few of the things he commanded because they are convenient. “..shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” James 2:18 “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Issac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” James 2:20-22.
So in this, we are all condemed? Not one of us, save for Christ, is perfect in this. Our belief that not all sinners are condemed to burn in hell for eternity is more of a Christ-like expression than letting our brethern and sisters suffer unbelievable anguish forever. Would Christ not want to help those who suffer? Did Christ not help those who did suffer? Whether the suffering be in this life or the next, to me it is no different.
Those who are in “hell” after this life, or “condemnation” are only there because they have stopped progressing. And they are only there as long as they have no progress. If a man says there is no need to search for more truth because they have found it, in them there is damnation. Damnation is a blockage, a stopping of progression. If you think you have come to the end, or simply refuse to look further, then you have condemned yourself. As soon as you repent of your folly, then your progression begins again. It will be the same in the afterlife as it is here, only on a different level of realization.
I am sorry, I ramble on and on. It is hard not to when all the words of the gospel are so interconnected. It is impossible to truely do one without the others.
Thank you for your time. I apologize for the length.
I just wanted to clarify something: my understanding of the afterlife as Mormons believe it includes both a temporary “hell” (see the section “what is hell?”) and a permanent “hell” (see the section about the sons of perdition). While the latter will never be an issue the vast majority of humanity, it is real and it is scriptural. It just seemed from some comments that that might not have been clear.
Mike, thanks for your story! It strengthens my faith. Really, I hope you tell it wherever and whenever you get the chance.
Also, I wanted to say that I agree with Thaddeus about the paragraphs. Not to make a big deal of it, but I don’t think he was off the mark there.
Kristi, I also want to assure you that we are very much searching the scriptures ourselves for answers. I think Candiss’s comment shows a deep reflection on the scriptures and their import in her life personally (thanks, Candiss).
Thank you for speaking the truth, Lesa.
You may have just opened some people’s eyes and saved them from an eternity of torment for following false teachings.
I live with a Mormon. She is my best friend. While trying to research her Mormon faith, I found this site. Thank you Lesa so stating what I think to be true. It was very interesting to see the views of other people and the Mormon Faith. I looked over the text mentioned above about Hell. I just do not understand how you can read this and take it apart to make it what you want it to be. It simply is what the text says it is. It is an eternity of pain that the rich man will never get out of. Although some of you may think this is a scary thought, (and it is) it is the truth! It is the Bible, which is the complete and total truth. For those who ask “what happens to those who do not get the privilage of hearing the Gospel?” I strongly think there are acceptions for everything, like babies. But as a human on this Earth, there is no way that you cannot look at the stars and not know that there is something greater than ourselves.
Alyssa,
I’m assuming the text you’re referring to is the following, from the Wikipedia article “Hell in Christian Beliefs”:
“The New Testament also uses the Greek word hades, usually to refer to the temporary abode of the dead (eg. Acts 2:31; Revelation 20:13).[7] Only one passage describes hades as a place of torment, the parable of Lazarus and Dives (Luke 16:19-31). Jesus here depicts a wicked man suffering fiery torment in hades, which is contrasted with the bosom of Abraham, and explains that it is impossible to cross over from one location to the other. Some scholars believe that this parable reflects the intertestamental Jewish view of hades (or sheol) as containing separate divisions for the wicked and righteous.[12][7] In Revelation 20:13-14 hades is itself thrown into the “lake of fire” after being emptied of the dead.”
I think it’s clear why the word “hell” in the New Testament refers to a temporary abode of all the dead, not an everlasting abode of the wicked. It’s because that’s what the Greek word meant. The Lazarus passage is unique because it’s the only reference to hell as a place of torment. As the article states, scholars read this passage and conclude not that torment is the only thing in “hell”, but that the abode of departed spirits may be divided into two different places that cannot be bridged.
I’m not sure where the misunderstanding is, or why this is “taking it apart” and “making it what I want it to be.” It’s what the text says. Mormons didn’t write it; we just like it because it sort of reinforces what we already believed. So you may be right about the Luke passage, but if you are, you have a lot of bible scholars and linguists to convince.
I am intereated to know which scholars believe in this compartmentalisation of sheol and hades (referenced in the Wikipedia article)?
As a Christian looking into the LDS faith (seriously) I have been amazed that my belief about outer darkness is something you people also believe. I am either dead wrong or we are both right
Anyone who can shed light on these ‘scholars’ so that I can carry out further research? Much appreciated!
Paul (UK)
Paul,
Yeah, I really wish I knew that also
For the statement “Some scholars believe that this parable reflects the intertestamental Jewish view of hades (or sheol) as containing separate divisions for the wicked and righteous.”, the wiki article cites the New Bible Dictionary articles “sheol” and “hell”. I don’t have that, but I imagine those articles would have further citations, or could be attributed to whatever editors or authors wrote the articles.
New Bible Dictionary 3rd edition, IVP Leicester 1996. “Sheol”.
New Bible Dictionary 3rd edition, IVP Leicester 1996. “Hell”.
In addition, the most famous scholar who pointed out that the Greed word Hades refers to a place of all departed souls, not just the wicked, was Frederic W. Farrar, in his book Eternal Hope (1892), xxxvi-xlii.
I hope this helps in your search. If you find out more, definitely come back and post the info; I’d be interested to hear. Thanks for your comment.
read the bible much? it contradicts just about everything you just wrote about….yeeeaaaah. Oh and read the last few lines of the bible…that just about proves Smith was lying. If you disagree you are saying God is lying…up to you i guess.
Wowzzzaa, could you be a little more specific? What verses have you read that contradict this post?
Regarding the last few lines of the Bible, please see this post. I’d love to continue this thread over there.
Thanks for visiting our site!
I agree with Lesa, Alyssa, 4Christ, and just wanted to add that as a Baptist, I believe God is amazingly merciful and gracious, and fair. I believe anyone in Hell chooses to go there. I don’t believe that people who have never heard the gospel go to hell, but the Bible says that everyone will have a chance to make a choice while they are alive, so they are without excuse.
Until a person is able to make that choice, such as babies or young children who cannot understand, they are not asked to make that choice. God is righteous, and good, and he understands us better than we understand ourselves.
I just wanted to clarify that because I believe in a literal hell that includes actual fire forever doesn’t mean God isn’t merciful. He has put up with the wickedness of humans and given us millions of chances for thousands of years now.
All of gods truth is found in the bible if the book of Mormon was part of that truth it would be in the bible if u don’t choose Christ and accept his teaching you suffer the second death eternal seperation from god eternal means forever hell last forever it the great punishment the bible talks about it’s appointed when man is to die then the judgement after your judged you are thrown into the lake of fire so if you belive it’s temporary your claiming Satan also gets to heaven wow it sounds to me j.s. Is a soother of itching ears a false teacher a prophalier
I’m interested in learning more about what you believe, Amanda. At death, are you (as a spirit) immediately taken to judgment? Also, do you believe the dead will be resurrected?
It amazes me that satan uses the same old tactics and the same old lies and we still fall for it…..he takes God’s word and switches it up slightly (which makes it a LIE).
1) Genesis 3:1-5 ~ Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
God’s Word is very clear about hell,whether He mentions something once for fifty it’s His Word. Who are we to say that our Creator didn’t mention something enough, therefore we are not going to listen to Him, but come up with our own conclusion.
2) Revelation 20:13-15 ~ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
3) Mark 9:43 ~ If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out
4) Mark 9:47 – 48 ~ “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”.
5) Hell is a very real place that does last forever and there are no second chances. This fact does not make God any less merciful, He is the King of Mercy and gives ALL of us the opportunity to know Him and not suffer eternal damnation.
Lastly, I’d just like to say that God’s Word is the final authority on ALL matters. He is clear about not adding to or taking away from His Word. Just because we think or feel something, doesn’t make it TRUTH.
5)Revelation 22:18 – 19 ~ I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Melissa,
I appreciate the organization of your thoughts, and the fact that you have brought up some good scriptures. In the interest of making the article concise, I didn’t include anything about Gehenna or the lake of fire. That was, it appears, a mistake. So though I mentioned it in an earlier comment, I think it would be good to clarify.
As my grandfather always used to say to me*, you’ve got to be careful with Hell. Hell is a tricky word. For instance, the English word “hell” in Mark 9 is translated from the Greek word “Gehenna”. “Gehenna” is different than “Hades”, though both words are translated as “Hell”.
Here’s the trick: in the New Testament, Gehenna, or the valley of fire, or lake of fire, is permanent. Hades is temporary.
We as Mormons do believe in “a real place of torment that does last forever and there are no second chances” (see the small section on the Sons of Perdition in the article). Sometimes we even call it “hell.” So nobody is disputing that there exists such a state. What I’m trying to point out at the beginning of this post is that the Bible appears to support the Mormon belief in an intermediate, temporary state as well. (Your reference in Revelation 20 underscores this. What exactly is thrown into the lake of fire?)
I hope that clears things up a bit.
5) Please see
http://en.fairmormon.org/Bible/%22Adding_to%22_or_%22taking_away_from%22
*(he didn’t really used to say that)
Thanks for the article. I’ve heard many LDS members say that the telestial and terrestial kingdoms would be ‘like’ a hell. The people that are rewarded those glories will still be ‘sad’ knowing that they didn’t get into the celestial kingdom. As far as I know, I’ve never heard a general authority say that this is LDS doctrine. Why do you think this idea persists? It seems like speculation. Why can’t the telestial and terrestial people be completely happy with what they’ve got. I’m sure the telestialites will be quite relieved to escape the 1,000 years of ‘hell.’
if God is loving why would he have us all die?
we are all sinners. we have fallen short of the glory.
so why should some go and not others?
I’m still questioning my beliefs so I don’t know much.
all I’ve seen from looking at other churches is that God is mean. And that’s an understatement.
Why would he send all that have fallen short away from him?
where did the other Christian beliefs come from? some of them seem to have no basis in the bible…and many of what people say contradict everything.
why do some things stay true and others don’t? From what I’ve seen, Christians choose certain beliefs to follow and others to just throw away.
I’m just wondering..is there a place to look at a Book of Mormon?
I’d just like to read a bit of it to see if it makes sense to me. to see if it does add up to the Bible.
You can definitely look at a Book of Mormon! You can request a free copy through Mormon.org at the link below:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/free-media/request-a-free-copy-of-the-book-of-mormon
I love the Book of Mormon. I read it on the train during my commute, and the things I read in it teach me about Christ and bring peace and reassurance to my life – much needed, I tell you.
At the bottom of each page of the Book of Mormon there is a sort of study guide that references many Bible scriptures – that might be helpful as you start to study how the Book of Mormon goes along with the Bible.
Good luck with your research – I hope you find joy and truth in the Book of Mormon like I do!
JJ,
Your comment about God seeming “mean” sometimes is completely understandable. He does seem mean sometimes. And it’s not just to you; through all of time people have grappled with the fact that the apparent pain and suffering in the world doesn’t exactly jive with a God who is both omnipotent and all-loving.
There is a little poem that goes something like:
If God is good, then He is not God.
If God is God, then He is not Good.
I can’t say I completely know the answer to that little paradox, but I can say definitively that within Mormonism is the best approach and perspective on that issue by far (by very far), and it lies in our very unique doctrine of the purpose of life. Because if life’s purpose is to only serve God, or to be perfectly happy, as many Christians assert, then God did a horrible job designing life. And if God chooses to reveal himself only to an elect group of his children, while the rest are cast into the fire eternally, then God can scarcely be the embodiment of love.
The Mormon view rejects both of those ideas in favor of life being a “mortal probation”, the death and the pain temporary and necessary to our eternal progression and learning. As I mention in this article, this earth is not the end. Death is not the end. Everyone will have an equal chance of accepting or rejecting God and ultimately the vast vast majority of people will accept him and progress into some degree of glory and happiness. And we will look back on the pain of this world in the same way as I now look back at my homework in high school: miserable, but essential to the person I have become.
I wish I could just unfold the whole Mormon view on the purpose of life, but it’s a bit long for a comment. If I were you I’d go to a Mormon church and start asking people questions. Or poke around on this site. Search phrases like “the plan of salvation”, and “why bad things happen to good people”. If you want to talk more, feel free to email me at mixterhealey@gmail.com
Thank you, Amelia. I requested one. I hope I finally find the truth. I’m tired of just hearing stuff that doesn’t have a base in the bible.
thank you, Dave.
I’m just trying to find the truth and to figure out what feels right. Most of what I’ve seen at the church I’m going to right now doesn’t feel like the truth. I’m just trying to find it.
I’ll look around on this site. Maybe I’ll find stuff and if I have some more questions I’ll send you a message.
JJ – I’m glad you got it! I can’t wait to hear how it goes, and if you want to chat about it you can email me too @ amoeba.kate@gmail.com.
Dave,
1) The concept of everyone receiving an “equal chance of accepting or rejecting God…” after death is an interesting one to me. Where is that mentioned in scripture?
2) I really appreciated all of Melissa’s scriptural references. I’ve noticed the “root-word” explanations you’ve been using to explain the Mormon stance on hell, but they don’t seem to stand up to scriptural scrutiny. All of the New Testament references are either to Gehenna or Tartaros, a cultural metaphor referring to either a place where animal carcasses were dumped and burned or the home of the wicked dead, respectively, or Hades, a Greek metaphor used to refer to death and the grave (which, in this context, is describing not just the place where all dead people go, but a place of death as punishment).
3) I see no mention of the “sons of perdition” in scripture.
4) I see no second opportunity for redemption in scripture. Indeed, very few of us living now could justify the need for a second opportunity, having all heard the true gospel proclaimed to us. As for generations past, I trust that God will deal with them justly, and I require no external evidence of His dealings to bolster my faith.
5) We receive no indication in the post-Christ world that hell is anything but a place of permanent death and torment. Thus the fitting allusion to Gehenna.
6) “What exactly is thrown in to the Lake of Fire?” – Rev. 20:15 – all those whose names are not found in the Book of Life…which begs the question, how does one appear in the Book of Life? – Rev. 3:5 – all those whom the Son advocates to the Father for at judgment…so who does the Son advocate for at judgment? – John 14:6 & 3:16 – whoever believes in the Son
7) The conflicting perspectives of hell are small when compared to the vast sea of problematic incongruencies between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, leaving aside entirely the questionable origins and impossibility of verification of the contents of the Book of Mormon. No serious harmonizing of the two is possible, and, if undertaken, will necessarily cause the reader to have to choose which is telling the truth.
Okay, that’s all for now. I just ran across this post, so I thought I would add my two cents on a few things. Look forward to your response
JJ, I read a bit of the correspondence taking place between you, Dave and Amelia and the Lord prompted me to jump in and (hopefully) answer some of your questions using God’s word. I hope you all don’t mind. All of us were born with a hunger and longing to know God. The problem is most people don’t know that is what they are looking for, so they go on searching and searching and many times end up in some un-Godly belief systems. The great news is ALL of your questions to life are found in God! And He has provided us with His Holy Word (The Bible) in order to help us and guide us through life. Romans 10:9 tells us that if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, that we are saved! How awesome is that?!?! Once you are saved, you are filled with God’s Holy Spirit and are then able to understand the things of God. It is all about a relationship with God, not about religion and man made traditions. Seek God and He will reveal Himself to you and every answer to any question that you may have. Below I’ve provided a few scriptures that came to my mind when I saw your questions. I hope they help. Again, I hope that you don’t mind me sharing. There is so much peace in knowing the Lord. The frustrations of searching, never knowing and wondering what and who to believe disappear once you know Him personally.
if God is loving why would he have us all die?
we are all sinners. we have fallen short of the glory.
so why should some go and not others?
Romans 6:23 ~ For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. – A price has to be paid for sin, that price is death. But God has paid the price himself through Christ, so we can accept His death as payment or we have to pay with our own lives (eternally).
Romans 2:8 ~ But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. – God doesn’t turn anyone away, many people reject God. He invites everyone to have a relationship with Him (“whosoever will”)
John 3:16 ~ “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 5:7-9 ~ Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
2 Peter 3:9 ~ The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Titus 3:4-7 ~ But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him – Again, God’s love provides a way for us to be saved.
Hebrews 9:27 ~ And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
I’m still questioning my beliefs so I don’t know much.
all I’ve seen from looking at other churches is that God is mean. And that’s an understatement.
Proverbs 8:17 ~ I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
Jeremiah 29:13 ~ You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 33:3 ~ ‘Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.’
John 5:24 ~ “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
where did the other Christian beliefs come from? some of them seem to have no basis in the bible…and many of what people say contradict everything.
why do some things stay true and others don’t? From what I’ve seen, Christians choose certain beliefs to follow and others to just throw away.
Mark 7:8
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
1 John 4:1-3 ~ Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ~ For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Matthew 24:5 ~For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ, ‘ and will deceive many.
“I hope I finally find the truth. I’m tired of just hearing stuff that doesn’t have a base in the bible.”
“I’m just trying to find the truth and to figure out what feels right. Most of what I’ve seen at the church I’m going to right now doesn’t feel like the truth. I’m just trying to find it.”
John 14:6 ~ Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:26 ~ But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Proverbs 2:6 ~ For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Revelation 22:7 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17 ~ All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Revelation 22:18 ~ I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book
Joe,
1. The fact that everyone has an equal chance of accepting or rejecting God, I suppose I took for granted, believing in a God who loves all his children (I hope I don’t need to cite scriptures on that one). Do you not believe that everyone has an equal chance of accepting or rejecting God?
2. I don’t think we disagree about what words the scriptures use to describe the fate of the dead. Maybe you haven’t read all of my comments, though. As for what the scriptures mean, to me it’s pretty clear that Hades and the lake of fire are two different places, seeing as how after the final judgment, “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev 20:15).
Please see those wikipedia articles I keep citing. “Hell in Christianity” “Hades in Christianity” and “Gehenna”. If they’re not correct, then you’ve got a good project on your hands to change them.
3. Similarly, I see no mention of the “trinity” or the “rapture” in scripture.
But you might point out that specific words don’t have to be found in the Bible in order for people to believe the concepts. The Son of Perdition is a term once used in the bible to describe Judas (John 17:12), but other than that it’s the Mormon word of preference to describe those who forever reject God. What do you call those people in your church?
4. Well, I’ve always thought of the afterlife (pre-final judgment) to be a time mostly for those who haven’t had a proper first chance to get one, and not for people who have already rejected Jesus to have a second shot. However, we certainly take literally the statement that “every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess” that Jesus is the Christ (Phil 2:10, Rom 14:11), and to what extent bowing the knee and confessing Jesus the Christ implies salvation, you decide. Don’t worry, though. We don’t believe that people who reject the gospel of Christ here just get a free second shot after life, if that’s what you’re worried about.
7) You know what’s funny, is that “problematic incongruencies”, as you call them, are so subjective. I have some Jewish friends that insist the same thing about the Old Testament and the New Testament. And some atheists who insist that about different parts within the New Testament, or contradictions between the Bible and current historical research. There’s just no convincing them otherwise (but don’t worry–I still believe the Bible). So I’m not going to try in this case either. But suffice it to say that that there are something like 13 million Mormons who read the Bible and the Book of Mormon all the time, and we find them very much in harmony.
Also, I’ve said this before, but I think it’s a good time to say this again: don’t get the impression from all my talk about hell in the New Testament that the Mormon view of hell is something we formulated by just reading the Bible; it’s not. You can no more get our complete view of the afterlife from reading the New Testament alone than you can get the full doctrines of salvation or sanctification or baptism from reading the Old Testament alone. Scriptures found in our Book of Mormon and our book of Doctrine and Covenants are essential to our view of the afterlife. My object in writing this post was to inform about our view, and also show that the idea of a temporary place after this life is not entirely foreign to the Bible.
I think the last point that you made Dave might be the most important. As Mormons, we aren’t trying to fit our doctrines and beliefs into the context of what other Christian churches believe. We stand alone and apart from the rest of Christianity. The interesting thing is that many other Christians seems to believe we are trying to fit in with them and want to prove to us that we don’t. We know that we don’t fit into their beliefs perfectly.
We believe in prophecy and revelation by prophets who have the seal of God’ s approval stamped on what they say to dictate our beliefs. Since we believe this, Mormon doctrine is going to differ from all other churches. Of course, we are going to have beliefs and doctrine that differ from the Bible, because the Bible isn’t the sole source of authority for us, it is one source. Furthermore, we believe that there are incorrect things in the Bible, or things that can be misunderstood, because there was a period of time when the men taking care of God’s words in the Bible didn’t have His authority and consequently some of their own thoughts crept in. It seems so logical to me that God should direct his work and Church through modern revelation and not let his children guide themselves solely on what had been revealed previously. Revelation was given from Christ to direct His Church after His death for some time (for an explanation about why only for a short time, please see “Joseph Smith and Authority“; or “What Do Mormons Believe-The Restoration“.) . This is how it worked when Moses, Adam, and Abraham were alive. So, why shouldn’t it be the same today?
The idea that everyone has an equal chance isn’t exactly what Mormon doctrine teaches. People who live their lives and die without Law cannot inherit the Celestial Kingdom. These people will inherit the telestial kingdom. However, it is true that these people will not go to hell.
See Doctrine and Covenants 76:72
Chris,
You are wrong in your assumption. You have read that scripture without full context. Here is what Mormons believe as found in Doctrine and Covenants 137:1-10
1 THE heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.
2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;
3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.
4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
I hope that clears up your confusion.
Ah ok. I actually have read D&C 137 before. It just didn’t come to mind. Thanks for pointing that out. But this brings up an interesting situation. D&C 76 came out in 1832 (and given to both Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith). It seems to say that what is done while on earth is very important. And it would make sense to me that people who died without Law could only inherit the terrestial kingdom considering the importance of the mortal life and the importance of how a person exercises their faith according to what has been revealed to them.
And then 4 years later comes D&C 137 (give to only Joseph Smith). This section seems to say something a bit different and appends D&C 76. To me it seems like an afterthought. Why couldn’t God have revealed his law to everyone? Is it really a true test of obedience for those who lived without the Law? I can understand why Joseph Smith would amend D&C 76 considering it was his only family who died without the Law. To me it doesn’t make sense why D&C 137 didn’t come at the same time as D&C 76. D&C 76:72 shouldn’t exist.
Chris,
i think that these are good questions. I don’t have all of the answers for you. Let me make a few comments though.
I imagine that Joseph Smith did wonder what would happen to his brother, Alvin, who died without being baptized without the proper authority. Revelation comes in response to a person asking questions. In fact, Joseph had questions while translating the book of St. John and this is what prompted the receipt of D&C 76. Maybe Joseph was pondering a similar question like you posed, “Well, Lord, you said in D&C 76 that those who died without the law would only inherit the terrestrial kingdom. What about my brother, he was so good? Is it completely fair that he automatically be assigned to the terrestrial kingdom, simply because he never had the chance to receive baptism according to Your way?” Perhaps it didn’t happen this way, but more likely a similar occurrence took place. By Joseph asking a question, this allowed the Lord to further clarify and give new understanding and truth to what he told Joseph in D&C 76. You are right it does seem strange that the Lord wouldn’t just give this information all at once. But, that isn’t how the Lord works all of the time. He gives us as much information as we are able to understand. D&c 76 was a huge revelation in terms of doctrine. I am sure it took awhile for the church to get their minds around it. So when the two revelations are put together our doctrine becomes complete.
A similar question could be posed, why didn’t Jesus send out all of the apostles to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles? Why did he wait until after he died and then give Peter the revelation that he could go out and preach to the Gentiles?
Thanks Chris. Have a nice day.
To Whom It May Concern (Mormons),
I really respect the people who posted this website in order to clear some of the of the obscurities concerning the Mormon faith, but there are several things that I do not agree with. I won’t bother to mention them all, time will not allow me, but I will mention the most pressing in my opinion.
I came across a website in which it said that God was once a man. I find that idea simply preposterous. That God was once a man and he “worked” to make himself perfect just could not be possible. That’s not even the half of it! Before God was…well, God, her served another God! Now, I always believed there was only one God, so where in the world do Mormons get the idea that there was a “god” before God. Please don’t tell me this was given in a “revelation.” I couldn’t stomach the idea. Also, this “Deification” process and “exaltation” I find hard to believe as well. The main point of this paragraph however is to show how absurd the idea is that God served another God.
Another point I would like to bring out is the Mormon’s plan of salvation. Simply put, I don’t believe in three levels of Heaven (i.e., Terrestrial, Tellestial, and Celestial). God’s Word doesn’t mention anything of the sort, so where in the world do these ideas come from. I’m pretty sure I can guess that the answer is going to be because of revelation again. There is a Heaven. And there is a Hell. If that though scares people, sorry, but it’s the truth. People are being led astray with all of these false doctrines everywhere. The Bible is the “final” authority on God’s plan. I would love to add many scriptures to this comment, but I’m pretty sure they have been used several times on this post already. Please respond to my comment.
Phillip, the ideas you talked about largely do come from the revelations of Joseph Smith. LDS Mormons can use scripture to provide evidence and justification for these revelations but you will obviously interprate these versus to mean something else. So it comes down to authority. Who has the authority to interprate the scriptures correctly? From my outsider perspective, all interpretations are equally valid (and equally invalid).
Determining who is right, as far as I’m aware, is an impossible task. How would I be able to verify the feeling/witness of the spirit – even if I were to even get one? The witness or feeling you get if you pray to ask God, is largely influenced by your upbringing, worldview and other personal factors. Whether one person says that they the Spirit told them the B.O.M. is true or false says more about the person than the book itself.
Whether one person says that they the Spirit told them the B.O.M. is true or false says more about the person than the book itself.
That conclusion is, itself, biased by an initial worldview.
If there is an actual Holy Spirit whispering to a Book of Mormon reader, and that reader has a skeptical worldview, he will not attribute the whisper to anything beyond his own thoughts. It will be erroneously filtered out.
My conclusion is quite a bit biased by my worldview, yes. But it is not a close-minded worldview. It is one that is open to good evidence and peer review. I try my best to not accept claims that don’t have good evidence to back them up. I try to practice this method of skepticism in my day-to-day life, and I see no reason why I should accept a different standard towards supernatural claims.
Anyway, I think I know the direction our conversation will be going. I’m not necessarily interested in “converting” you to my ideas. My only interest is having a conversation and to explore ideas that maybe a lurker might find interesting.
So your response is also yet again a question of authority. Why is your interpretation of the Spirit-feeling correct and not mine or the non-LDS Christian’s? When somebody says that God or the Spirit told them that the B.O.M. teaches good things but it’s not “The Truth”, then how is that any less valid than the answer you received? The supposed answers and feelings that come from God or the Spirit are so much across the board, how is it possible to verify which is from God, from man or from the devil (assuming there is a God and a devil)? When an LDS Mormon says that they are not deceived but members of the other Christian sects are, how do they know that it is not the opposite that is the case?
Those who do not accept Christ will spend eternity in Hell. Read your Bible not the false Book of Mormon. Read Revelations it will tell you what happens to the unsaved. Also beware those who change the words of God will also be cast into the Lake of Fire to face eternal damnation.
There was a time and a purpose for the plural marriage. It was during the persecution of the church in Missouri and some surrounding states. The men of the church who had not been murdered by the mobs were asked to take on other wives and children. They were going to be making a very long and severe journey across the country.
They are not the only church or leaders that have practiced their religion and also took care of multiple wives.
One only has to read the Old Testament to learn that many of the Patriarchs of that time had multiple wives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Plural_Marriage#Old_Testament_examples
Amber, if that is the case then why continue the practice of polygamy after the saints were relatively safe in Utah? What was the purpose then? It wasn’t stopped until they were pressured to stop. Surely, the number of men grew. In fact, I think I remember reading somewhere that census records show that LDS women did not outnumber men as many Mormons claim.
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I much prefer the Mormon view of the afterlife than the one proposed by the commenter “J”. The punishment in the Bible doesn’t seem to fit the crime. In fact the crime will be paid twice – once by Jesus and once by the unbeliever. How does that make sense at all?
i like ur post J because the truth of the matter is no one wants accountability everyone wants to hear what feels good and dnt want to feel the spirit of God convicting them but i pray for wisdom over every single person reading these posts and that the spirit of confusion will not come upon them. We all need accountability cus in the end all of our actions will be accounted for.
Quick question for any mormon i wantted to know do you guys believe in the power of healing, have the pastors in your churches ever done anything like that.. i was curious about your views on that.
and one last thing for
Ben,
you said “(for an explanation about why only for a short time, please see “Joseph Smith and Authority“; or “What Do Mormons Believe-The Restoration“.) . This is how it worked when Moses, Adam, and Abraham were alive. So, why shouldn’t it be the same today.” u were speaking bout how God gives his prophets revelations
i wanted to add that every single man of God in the bible that has been given revelation n prophecy have all been correct, now with JS prophecy about Christ was incorrect when he said he would return in 56 years. (This is what he said in his meetin)
President Smith stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion–our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.
That time has passed n Christ still isnt here n thats just one of his failed prophecys so i didnt understand he teaching false prophecies n has soo many followers.
Well God bless, write back if u can
Alessia,
Thanks for your comment. We do believe in the gift of healing and that will make a great article. We’ll get right on that.
Regarding Joseph’s supposed prophecy, I highly recommend reading this FAIR article. I would also like to know what you think of Joseph’s Civil War prophecy.
The fact that the Bible teaches that there is a hell is indisputable. However, that is not the most important question. The most important question is do you know who Jesus really is. Why? 1 John 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
If you don’t have this right you will spend your eternity in hell.
Q. Do you know what the Bible teaches about who Jesus is? Start by looking at John 1:1.
Q. Does the Bible teach that Jesus was procreated or did He always exist?
Q. What was there before time? According to the Bible who was there before Creation?
Q. Who did Jesus say that He is. John 8:58 He said “I am”. Read chapter 8. John 10:30 Jesus said “I and the Father are one”.
Q. If Jesus said “I and the Father are one” how could he have been procreated? Please read John 10 in context.
Dear people the Bible tells the Truth on every subject, you only need to look.
For instance: The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a ( PERSON ).
Q. What do the mormons teach you?
The Mormon religion is a so-called Christian cult. Read the history of Joseph Smith. Research, research, research.
What does the Bible say?
Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART” that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
One last thing. GRACE MUST BE DRUNK STRAIGHT!
Lynn, I’m an unbeliever yet to be convinced of the God hypothesis let alone a certain religion or denomination. I would disagree with you that the Mormon church is a cult using the definition that I am aware of. I can see how the LDS church has cultic qualities but these same qualities can be applied to all religions.
Now to stay on topic…One thing that just doesn’t make sense to me with the Christian view of hell is the idea of eternal punishment. Even if my works are perfect, yet I simply do not accept Jesus I am punished for eternity. How is this just? At least with the Mormon church, hell only lasts a max of 1,000 years (ignoring the doctrine of outer darkness). This is by far more just. Finite sin, finite punishment
Secondly, and to stray a little from the topic, penal substitution theory again doesn’t make sense. How is it JUST that an innocent person be punished for somebody else’s sins? How is it JUST that there can be two people being punished for the same sin (once by Jesus and once by the unbeliever)? (Some of this does apply to Mormonism but not to the extent of evangelical christianity, I think.)
Lynn, your doctrine is a bit internally inconsistent and illogical.
Short answer: We don’t believe in the traditional view of “hell” as a place of never ending torment for those who don’t accept Jesus in this world. Hell is a temporary state of terrible anguish and pain for the wicked, but with very few exceptions, everyone will eventually accept Jesus Christ and receive some degree of glory. Our belief that everyone eventually gets the same chance to accept the gospel, and that hell doesn’t last forever, makes the Mormon doctrine of the afterlife one of the most hopeful and merciful in all Christianity.
************************************************************
You don’t seem to know your mormon doctrine very well. Notice that the sons of perdition spend eternity in fire. So even though you think you won’t be in hell your doctrine does say that there is a place of eternal torment for some.
I’m just sayin.
************************************************************
D&C 76: 43-45
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
D&C 18: 42
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.
Chris,
Well, you must be much more intelligent than I because I have no idea what (Lynn, your doctrine is a bit internally inconsistent and illogical.) means.
However, I would agree that you can find cultish behavior in every religion, even Christianity. That is a whole other discussion.
I say so-called christian cult because they do not adhere to what is clearly taught in the Bible about who Jesus is. I gave scriptures that would hopefully lead one to the knowledge of what He Himself said as in John 8 and John 10. These are important in order to know who He is.
Also, the mormons teach that Jesus was procreated. This is clearly disputed in scripture as in John 1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.” And other places that I encourage you to discover for yourself. Read the whole Gospel of John.
I am not trying to be logical here because I understand that since we cannot see God with our natural eyes we believe by faith.
I was atheist many years ago and felt that nothing about God, Satan, Angels or any of the other stuff made any logical sense. But now I know. Why do I know? I didn’t logically come to the conclusion that God exists. I needed Him bad and He had grace to lead to Him for His purposes. He opened my eyes just enough to see that he is real and that If I place my trust in Him, He will never leave me nor forsake me. I know, I know, you think its not logical. Well, maybe not, but what I know is He changed me from an alcohol and drug invested, self centered butt head into what I am today. Just a butt head:). Seriously though, if you are searching don’t settle until you have read the original (the Bible). Its like when you join anything that you invest your life in, you do your due diligence. Find out what the statement of faith is in Christianity and compare them to not just the mormons but also the jehovah witnesses, christian science and some of the eastern religions. The more see the lies the more Truth is revealed. God’s speed.
Just one other thing: GRACE MUST BE DRUNK STRAIGHT!
Lynn, I appreciate that this is a vital and deeply-rooted topic in your life. You have demonstrated that it matters to you and I agree with you. This topic matters to me a great deal, too.
I would appreciate it if we could talk about it in a less emotionally-charged way. We have seen your comments so far as abrasive and condemnatory to us, and I hope you can see that we aren’t interested in battling. Understanding is our goal. Let’s have a conversation.
I would like to know what you mean by “Grace must be drunk straight.” Can you elaborate on that?
It’s been a while since I’ve last posted something on this page (I’ve only posted one thing on here), however, last time I was here, my question wasn’t answered. I want to know why do Mormons believe in things such as God was once a man, and that he served his god?! Where does all of this come from. If I remember correctly, Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible in church, and it says in Isaiah 45 that there is no God beside Him. So where is all of this conflict coming from. I would like to know the answer to these questions if you can tell me. Or you can refer me to a place that does have them.
Phillip, thank you for your questions. I found a few resources that will be able to help you. As you read them, try to remember that these deep teachings require the appropriate background knowledge to understand them. Differential equations are incomprehensible without the background of algebra and calculus.
This is what our website is for. It paints the background picture. It gives you the introduction; please browse our other pages to learn more.
It is also essential to humbly bow before God and ask Him to teach you. Good luck in your studying!
FAIR: Isaiah’s words, “No God beside me”
LightPlanet: What do Latter-day Saints mean when they say that God was once a man?
FAIR: Theosis – the Ancient Christian doctrine of Human Deification
Thaddeus,
I will be happy to explain what I mean by GRACE MUST BE DRUNK STRAIGHT.
First of all though, you say you are not interested in battling. I say that could not be further from the truth. You are as I am contending for your faith. You have believed in and invested your life in your religion so naturally you will contend for what you believe. I am not battling against you, Ephesians 6:12 for my struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Further more, I do not condemn you. The confession of our mouth either saves us or condemns us. If we don’t know the truth about who the Son is and we misrepresent Him in who He is, what does the Bible say? 1 John 23: Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
It seems to behoove us therefore to tell the truth about Jesus lest we deny Him. We need to make sure that we are talking about the Jesus of the Bible in contrast to the Jesus of the Book of Mormon.
Q. Is Jesus the one true God or is He one of many gods?
Q. Do you believe that you will become a God?
Q. If so, how do you square that with verses like …
Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
8 ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.’”
And again: Isaiah 45:5
“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
And again: Isaiah 45:6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,
And again: Isaiah 45:18 “I am the LORD, and there is none else.”
And again: Isaiah 45:21 And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
And again: Isaiah 46:9
“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
What I mean by GRACE MUST BE DRUNK STRAIGHT is that salvation is by Grace alone as it says in Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 and 9 — 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
While we are created for good works they are the out workings of our faith, they do not have a place in salvation.
Therefore if Grace were a drink then it must be drunk straight, no mixture.
I know that flies in the face of mormon doctrine. . .
@Lynn,
Like you, we believe that Jesus is our Savior. There is no other way we can come unto God but through Him. There is none other. We cannot do it without His saving grace. Anyone that denies the Son will “not have the Father.”
I see nothing that you have quoted that “flies in the face of Mormon doctrine.” In fact, we happen to believe those the same scriptures.
Willie,
We can say we believe anything but if we deny who Jesus Christ is and we say for instance that His blood was not good enough to atone for our sins ( 100% ) and we think that we can add to it our works in order to be saved we are deceived.
Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The grace, works mixture that the mormons believe is not Biblical. Our works are out workings of our faith — 1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
There is a difference between salvation and knowing God. We show our faith in Him by our works. We are saved by Grace. If we say that the sacrifice is not good enough to save us 100% then we deny Christ by lessening the value of His blood and are counting on something we do to receive salvation. The point is His sacrifice paid the whole price for our salvation. There is nothing we can add to it for salvation. His blood paid the price ( 100% ).
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
One other thing: GRACE MUST BE DRUNK STRAIGHT!
Lynn,
In your last comment you said, “We show our faith in Him by our works. We are saved by Grace.” This is exactly what we believe. I know that you have been told differently and you believe that we think we can work our way into heaven. We don’t believe that. So, let’s not keep debating, you need to put aside what others have told you and start to believe us. We are the ones who know our doctrine. Thanks for your comments.
Ben is right, Lynn. We know what we believe and we are not lying to you.
We had a really good interaction with an evangelical Christian named Bradley awhile back where we discussed the grace of Christ. You can read through the conversation in the comments below the article called Salvation, then feel free to add your thoughts to that thread.
Thaddeus,
Thanks for the articles you you directed me to. They were really good. Yet, there are still some things I disagree with with this whole God question. I still haven’t seen proper justification to make me believe that God was once a man. And if he was, what happened to the God that he worshipped? According to my understanding of the Mormon faith, God was once a man, and he perfected himself through his works and by following the ordinances of his “god.” How is it possible that God had a god?
Also, how can you possibly “perfect” yourself. God was once a man according to Mormon philosophy, so he faced the same difficulties that we did with the temptations and all. This, obviously was before the time of Christ, so grace did not abound. So there was no grace to help him toward his “deification.” If looked at logically, it makes no sense that God was once a man. One tragic flaw with this belief is that if God did it, so could we. What’s to say that someone couldn’t do what God did (perfect himself by working hard), and become God. I don’t believe it is possible, but according to your faith, that is what he did.
@Phillip,
I believe this link may be better suited for your questions. I’ll just quote part of their conclusion:
“Not all Latter-day Saints accept the ideas which suggest a regression of divine beings. LDS doctrine on this point is not clear, and mostly speculative. It does not play much of a role, one way or the other, in LDS worship or thought.”
Ben,
The third mormon article of faith states
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Another way to say it would be ( if all mankind does not obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel then the atonement of Christ cannot save us. )
Obviously, what you believe, is because Christ made atonement, now you have an opportunity to live according to a set of laws and ordinances in order to be saved.
That is not showing your faith by your works that is saying that the Atonement needs your help to save you. That is contradictory to Biblical teaching. In this way you deny that Christ paid the complete price for sin.
I’m still waiting for answers to the questions that I asked on August 31st, 2010 at 6:05 pm.
Lynn,
I appreciate you bringing up the 3rd article of faith, because we do believe in keeping commandments. Christ said, “if ye love me, keep my commandments.” We are just trying to be obedient to what he has asked us to do.
Please, let’s get past this point. We have different beliefs Lynn. I believe that God still speaks to a prophet today just as he did Adam, Abraham, Noah, and Moses, you don’t. I believe that the Bible isn’t the only source of God’s word, you don’t. So, for us to go round and round about how what I believe doesn’t fit into the box of what you believe will be fruitless. Our doctrine isn’t going to change by you telling us how it doesn’t match up with what you believe. Why try to convince me otherwise? What we should be doing is having a mutual discussion about our beliefs where we are seeking to truly understand each other. So maybe we could approach it from that angle? So tell me why do you keep Christ’s commandments?
N Phillip dont be decieved God was never a man jus read the Word of God which is infallible (BIBLE) and God will be able to teach u n guide into the right direction. Grap on Jesus like he is the only rope in which u can be saved accept him n what he did on tha cross knowing that no good works could ever amount to the gift of salvation. SO working our way to heaven n tryna please God wont do us any good
Lynn,
I agree with what ur sayin cus ur speaking the true word of God n is not afraid to stand up for Jesus may The Lord bless u because of ur faith.
God is amazing Lets seek him n cry out to him n he will give us the widsdom n discernment that we need we dnt need to search around on websites n turn to false religions cus God is waiting on us to jus call upon him n take time to speak to him
May God Help us all in this crazy world were living in, Lead us and guide us in truth n understanding thank u Father!
To any mormon reading i want to know why do u guys even use the bible if alot of things in the Book of Mormon contradicts what God says in the bible and contradicts with what Josephn smith says shouldnt it be all or nothin not running back n forth between books i mean God is perfect in all he does he wouldnt ordain a prophet to contradict n stand for what his holy word goes against im jus saying Well i pray God jus removes the veil frm our eyes that we can see his true n pure glory not which to be tampered with.
God bless, n no offense im jus real passionate wen speaking about my lord
Love God +Hate sin= Live Holy!
Ben,
If you answer my questions then I will gladly answer yours. I would direct answers to my questions that I posted on August 31st, 2010 at 6:05 pm.
In response to your last post: I have no problem with keeping the commandments that Christ gave. The problem is that the keeping of any of these commandments is not a requirement for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8 + 9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Notice that Paul does not add ( by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel ). This is very clear, that salvation is a gift given because we confess Jesus as Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead we will be saved.
Now if you will answer the questions that I asked you in my August 31st, 2010 at 6:05 pm post I will answer your question IE “So tell me why do you keep Christ’s commandments?”.
I’ve been following this discussion for a while and I hope you don’t mind if I jump in and answer Lynn’s questions from Aug 31st at exactly 6:05pm.
Lynn asked “Q. Is Jesus the one true God or is He one of many gods?”
We echo the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him.”
So to emphasize, we believe in God the Father, in his Son Jesus Christ, who is the Savior of the World, and in the Holy Ghost. These three beings, though distinct individuals, are one in purpose (and thus are often referred to as “one”) to help God’s children to return to him.
Q. Do you believe that you will become a God?
To answer, I don’t believe I or anyone else will ever replace God the Father or our Savior Jesus Christ. God the Father is God. No question there. Jesus Christ is the Christ, no doubt about it.
But I also don’t believe that when I die I’ll be sitting on a cloud playing the harp all day. I believe that after living life the way Christ has taught, (ie repenting of my sins, loving my neighbor, keeping the commandments) God will give me the opportunity to be able to continue learning and growing in the afterlife. Any good father wants their children to gain their good qualities and to learn wisdom from them. I think that God wants to do the same and to help us become more like him. He wants to teach us how to have perfect love, how to have infinite kindness and to be all knowing. Though it would take an eternity for God to teach me everything from His vast wisdom, I’ll have just about that much time.
Q. If so, how do you square that with verses like …
(Lynn shares some great verses from Isaiah which state that there is only one Lord)
I like them and agree with them.
Above Thaddeus pointed out this FAIR: Isaiah’s words, “No God beside me” link which goes into more depth if there is still any confusion with those verses.
Phillip, the richest source of information on God’s genesis is Joseph Smith. He sermonized on this topic at the funeral of his friend, King Follett, and you can read the text here.
You may not believe it’s possible, and I’m okay with that. It’s not easy to swallow, but I do believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and he knew more about God than all the theologians who preceded him. I hope you will look more deeply into his life and the rest of his teachings.
Steve G.,
There is no confusion on my part about who God is and how many there are.
I understand the mormon doctrine of the three gods and you explain that well enough but could you please show me your scriptural proof. Since we obviously do not agree that the Book of Mormon is the word of God I am only willing to receive proof from the Bible. I will except your scriptures to consider from the King James Bible. If the mormon doctrine is true it should line up completely with the Bible and be able to stand on its own.
I believe that the Bible teaches the Triune Godhead. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three in one.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Exodus 20:1 – 3 And God spake all these words, saying 2. I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Do they not all have the same name? I wonder what it could be:)
2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Sounds more and more like three in one.
All three have the same divine nature: The Father is God which we all agree on.
The Son is God:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Notice here that the name of the child that is born to us shall be called The might God, The everlasting Father. Does this not mean the two are one? I mean com’on his name shall be call everlasting Father!
John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
I doubt that Thomas was wrong here.
The Holy Ghost is God:
Acts 5: 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Seems that the Holy Ghost is God.
It may be difficult to grasp the concept of three in one but we many examples in nature that are three in one such as the three states of water: Frozen water, liquid water, and vapor water yet it is still water. What about time: the past, the present and the future yet it is one unbroken continuity. What about the triune nature of man: body, soul and spirit. Are we not a three in one? If there were three individual Gods which one were we fashioned after? Or are some of us fashioned after one and others fashioned after a different one? The logical and likely answer is that:
There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each of whom possesses equally all the attributes of Deity and the characteristics of personality.
And that He fashioned us to be like him in a triunity. Body, soul and spirit.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Your words —
“But I also don’t believe that when I die I’ll be sitting on a cloud playing the harp all day.”
Is childish and condescending. I was asked not to be abrasive and condemnatory on this post. I would like you to treat people at least as though they have a brain.
One other thing: GRACE MUST BE DRUNK STRAIGHT!
Lynn,
To answer your recent request, let me refer you to another article written on this site: “Do Mormons Believe in the Trinity”
It’s a well written article. For your particular request of Biblical evidence, he has a good link near the bottom of his article that discusses that. I also think that page would be the proper forum for discussing the Trinity.
Sorry to offend you with my “sitting on the cloud playing a harp” comment. No offense was intended and in fact, I think harps are pretty cool.
Lynn,
Will your please explain what you believe salvation is and what it entails? Also, now that Steve has answered your questions, will you please explain what you believe the purpose of commandments is and why you keep them?
To Whom It May Concern,
Again, I have read the various articles posted on this page, and I have read them with an understanding heart, but, again, I disagree with a lot of it. Thaddeus, you said that you believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and knew much more about God than the theologians that came prior to him. I’m afraid I do not carry that same belief in light of the overwhelming evidence that contradicts it. It is illogical to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet when a vast majority of his prophecies were wrong or didn’t come to pass (60 prophecies unfulfilled). For the link, go to this site: http://www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm.
I have always held the belief that a true prophet is one who speaks the will of God, and it will in no way fashion or form contradict God’s Word. The true test of a prophet is as thus:
“And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously…” (Deut. 18: 21-22)
In light of this, Thaddeus, how can you still believe that Smith was a prophet? If you say be faith, believe me, I don’t disrespect you. I too, have faith in God, and in his ways, but God also gives us the spirit of discernment, to know right from wrong; good from evil. Sixty prophecies unfulfilled, and when thrown against that scripture in Deuteronomy, that proves Joseph was a false prophet. If you read the Bible, all the prophets (that were prophets of God) have never given a false prophecy. Not…one. They were true prophets, Thaddeus. Those who get it wrong once, are not true prophets. Joseph Smith got in wrong sixty times. It places a great strain on the Mormon religion as a whole, seeing as it was based upon this man.
Again, I pose the question, why should people place such faith on a man whose very teachings, his works, his religious statements contradict the will, way, and the whole being of God.
“For GOD is a Spirit, and they that worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth…”
Or so it says in the Book of John. I worship in spirit, seeing as he is a spirit (not a thing of flesh and bone, a “deified” man). I now ask you to look in the Bible for yourselves, and know what truth really is. Then look at your Book of Mormon and see the many fallacies that lie therein. I worship Him in truth. Do you?
Ben,
Why bother. Phillip just said enough for you to digest. I suggest you study his post with an open heart and then take him up on his challenge.
This information is presented as if it’s something we haven’t heard many times already. Each of these have been addressed before. To get started, the prophetic test is covered here and many of Joseph Smith’s prophecies here.
Read these over to get a better understanding of what Mormons believe. Thank you for learning more about our faith and for promoting understanding. God bless and good luck in your future endeavors.
To Whom It May Concern,
I will concur with you, Willie, on one thing. This information has been presented before. Yet, these links you give us do not adequately defend your position on why Joseph was a true prophet of God. For instance, take this prophecy. I’m pretty sure you have heard it multiple times before:
Prophecy about Jesus’ return within 56 years – “President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion–our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).
This is the prophecy about Jesus’ return in 56 years. Obviously, it did not come to pass. Instead, Joseph Smith passed away. Jesus said:
“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
It is said that Joseph Smith was praying earnestly for God to reveal to him when he shall return for the Second Coming. If you ask me, I believe that that was quite foolish. No man can know the day or hour. Even the angels in heaven cannot know the time, so what makes Joseph Smith think that this would be revealed to him. Did he not know, that countless people before him have asked the same question? Did he not know that they, in turn, were also denied from knowing this answer? So where did he get the “revelation” of knowing something no one can know, except the Father.
I have read your FAIR articles, if you want to refer me to more, by all means, do. Yet, I speak not from critics point of view, nor from past historians and theologians, I speak from what I believe God has revealed to me through the Word of God. Your arguments try to justify Joseph Smith’s failure as a prophet through things such as “contingent” and “they might not pass in the way that the people hearing it may think.” They were wrong, plain and simple. If these remarks seem galvanizing, please tell me, and I will try to tone it down some. I’m afraid however, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
Yet, these links you give us do not adequately defend your position on why Joseph was a true prophet of God.
Phillip, we thank you for your interest, but this website’s purpose is not to mount a defense (see our comment policy). We don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet because the FAIR articles convinced us, and we certainly don’t expect them to convince you; we simply want to show that there is more than your way of looking at the evidence (here’s a reading assignment for the latest objection you’ve brought).
I believe Joseph was a prophet because of the Book of Mormon and the confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.
To Whom It May Concern,
“I believe Joseph was a prophet because of the Book of Mormon and the ocnfirming witness of the Holy Ghost.” – Thaddeus.
Thanks for the reply, Thaddeus. Seeing as most people are partaking in a circular argument over the prophecies of Joseph, lets leave that topic for a while. You say you believe he is a prophet because of the Book of Mormon, but how can you be so sure that the Book of Mormon can be trusted. I am sure that you are aware of the many contradictions the Book of Mormon has against the Bible.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16).
The Bible was written by inspiration of God, or so it says in the Bible. I would have no problem believing that the BOM was inspired by God, yet if it was, why would God contradict Himself between both books. Here are a few examples:
Book of Mormon – “And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.” (Alma 7:10)
Bible – “Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem…(Matthew 2:1)
Book of Mormon – “But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.” (Helaman 14:20)
Bible – “And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.” (Luke 23:44)
I won’t bother to try and mention all of them. Lets just deal with these for now. Can you explan to men, Thaddeus, why this inconsistencies are here? If the Book of Mormon is really inspired by God, there would not lie any of these contradictions. I chose to choose the ones that are plain and clear. No wiggle room. No room for interpretation. One says one thing; the other says another. As black and white, there is a clear distinction between the two.
Phillip, I appreciate your curiosity and we are glad to give reasons for our beliefs, but there is a more efficient way than going back and forth from your concerns to our FAIR pages: you could look up your arguments on the FAIR website first and see if the response satisfies your curiosity.
As for the particular contradictions you have specified, they are merely readings taken out of historical and geographical context.
First, Alma 7:10 – Here is the appropriate FAIR page. In addition to what they say, you must also realize that this quote comes from a group of Israelites who lived well over 7,000 miles from Palestine and who hadn’t been there in nearly 600 years. Bethlehem is only five miles from Jerusalem City (which is different than the land of Jerusalem); I think it’s remarkable they passed down geography lessons well enough to know where Jerusalem was! I can certainly understand if the finer details of the Middle East map (like a small town on the outskirts of Jerusalem City, but within the land of Jerusalem) were lost or simplified.
Next, Helaman 14:20 – Here’s another page. This is just a matter of taking Luke too literally. “Over all the earth” to a person like Luke would mean “all the surrounding lands which I am aware of.” The Lord’s death caused darkness in the middle east for several hours, and a longer duration (three days) of darkness in ancient mesoamerica. It is largely believed that these three days of darkness were due to volcanic activity, which has been documented for the appropriate time and place of Book of Mormon lands.
Just had another thought. Even taking Luke unreasonably literally, there is no contradiction, since he only states “there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.” This leaves open the possibility that darkness continued in certain areas of the globe after the ninth hour. He only says global darkness extended until then.
I still believe Luke was only talking about his vicinity of the planet, but you can see that’s not a necessary interpretation.