Do Mormons Believe in the Trinity?

by
May 11, 2009
Q. What is the belief concerning the trinity, is it one God, 3 persons, or 3 gods that comprise one God? How does that work?

A core belief of all Christians is the testimony of Jesus Christ as divine. The nature of the godhead — God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost — is a key topic in religious discussion, and has been debated for centuries. The traditional Christian view describes the godhead, or trinity, as united in substance and in person in a way that is incomprehensible by man. As Latter-day Saints we believe as all Christians do “in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1).  We believe that they are one in purpose and mission and that they are three separate divine beings.

A brief study of history will show that the idea of numerical separateness of the godhead is not new, and was believed by many early Christians.  For example, Arius, founder of Arianism, was ruled a heretic after the first council of Nicea for preaching, among other controversial doctrines, the separateness of God the Father and Jesus Christ.

There are many biblical passages which clearly show the separateness in person of God the Father and Jesus Christ (see Matthew 3:16-17, Luke 22:42, Acts 7:55-56).  However, there are many others which also state that they are one (see Deuteronomy 6:4, John 10:30, 1 John 5:7).  This dichotomy has long been recognized, and the First Council of Nicaea was convened in AD 325 to, among other reasons, set forth in formal creed the official view of the church. The famous Nicene creed, which was adopted at that council and continues today as a cornerstone statement of many current doctrines of the trinity, describes Jesus Christ as “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father” (The Nicene Creed).

The convening of councils for the construction of creeds has been the method used by “traditional” Christian churches to resolve doctrinal disputes. As Latter-day Saints we believe that there is a better way:  through revelation given directly to authorized prophets, God has revealed and continues to reveal many gospel truths. Among the doctrines made clear in modern times by revelation is the nature of the godhead as three beings, united in purpose and separate in person. We value the inspired words in the Bible, and we believe that the same spirit which inspired its writers still inspires holy men today to teach doctrines that are equally true and valuable.

joseph_smith_first_vision_stained_glass2 It might be said that the doctrine of the trinity is the very first of all doctrines in which Latter-day Saint teachings differ from the traditional Christian view. The first prophet called of God in modern times was Joseph Smith. When he was a boy, disputes among churches prompted him to ask God for himself which church preached the eternal truth about God and salvation. In answer, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in glorious vision. God the Father himself said to Joseph “This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (Joseph Smith – History 1:17). What better example can there be of the unity of the Father and the Son as separate beings?

As stated earlier, Biblical evidence for the LDS doctrine is abundant. I have not focused on them so as to emphasize that we do not base our belief on a creed made by scholars concerning an expert interpretation of the Bible. We base our belief on the testimony given to us by the Holy Ghost that the first vision of Joseph Smith was real and prophets continue to reveal truth about God. I strongly recommend that any reader who wishes to see strong Biblical evidence of our belief read this talk (or watch it) by an apostle and special witness of Jesus Christ. I invite anybody who wishes to discover the truth of our message to study the scriptures, pray and ask God, who will tell you by the Holy Ghost that it is true.

This article was written by guest author Stephen Stacey

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64 Responses to “Do Mormons Believe in the Trinity?”

  1. John Charles

    As I review the foregoing comments, I note that our neighbors in faith, LDS folks invoke authority with regard to its doctrine on the Godhead.

    Because Our Lord said He would be with us always and unto the end of time, Matthew 28:20, He has not abandoned His Church. It is upon the authority of the Holy Father in Rome that each council were either called or ratified. Therefore, the unity of authority occurs when a council is held in unity with the Holy Father.

    The Nicene Councils were such councils and confirmed that Mary is the Mother of God and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, as the catechism states, In one God there are three Divine Persons, really distinct, and equal in all things–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    The early Councils were not an apostacy giving rise to a later church, but an affirmation of the ancient Faith of Jesus Christ.

    May the Lord bless you all!

  2. Thaddeus

    Thank you for the blessing, John Charles!

    We appreciate your Catholic viewpoint. You don’t see any signs of apostasy, so our claim that man’s understanding of the Godhead fragmented doesn’t compute for you.

    We Mormons do believe there was an apostasy: a loss of power and authority from God and a separation from His revelations after the original apostles died.

  3. RC

    All due respect Thaddeus, but the Bible remains clear on the fact that there is but ONE GOD, ONE Saviour.

    Upon what authority might the Mormon belief you express be based on?

    Matthew 16 is pretty clear as to who the rock upon the Church is built. The Catholic church is able to show 2000 years of succession of Peter whom Jesus chose to establish the universal (ie. Definition – Catholic) church.

    Matthew 16
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Thaddeus — should Jesus, the Christ, have denied himself at this point in your estimation?

    Perhaps reading noted passages to that effect might be of importance to not omit. Such passages as Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, 4) Take heed that no man deceive you 5) For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Again Thaddeus, not an apostle bu Jesus speaking.
    Should he deny himself in your estimation or is the bible filled with an error in your opinion as a Mormon?

    Isaiah states clearly there is but ONE GOD and but ONE Saviour. I refer you to Isaiah [Chap 41-55] for any further clarification on just how many God’s and Saviours there are. This has nothing to do with any New testament apostles at that point. You see nothing is to be omitted unless you are denouncing that Jesus is the Christ. Note that this is referencing from Isaiah in the OLD testament.

    Isaiah 9:6
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    {Counselor – Mighty God – Father – a Child, a Son)

    LORD and GOD and Saviour — Isaiah 42:8
    8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 43:3
    3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

    How may God’s, Saviours, LORD’s do we have Thaddeus?

    Then again refer to Matthew 24 where Jesus himself speaks. Dare you say Jesus is a blasphemer? Again, not an apostle speaking here but Jesus who is stating he is Christ. Are you saying that this is the lie perpetrated on all of mankind by Catholics? Christ — in Hebrew — anointed — Messias — Messiah.

    Note, I am showing the verses from the NKJV bible and not the Catholic version of anything. Perhaps you might enlighten us all with how this is ONLY a Catholic viewpoint expressed? I am sure others might be interested in exactly how this is explained and how the Mormon view is not ‘choosing’ to pick the flavor that fits versus reading the actual Bible in all it’s Glory with no ommission.

    Luke 1:42-47
    And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

    46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    In all Sincerity and Peace.
    Glory be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    Amen.

  4. RC

    Hello Kelaiah [April 2012],
    Perhaps referring to Isaiah in the OLD testament is more to your ‘liking’? Did Rome change the Old testament too in your estimation?

    Isaiah 9:6
    The Bible remains clear on the fact that there is but ONE GOD, ONE Saviour.

    Upon what authority might your belief you express be based on Kelaiah?

    Matthew 16 is pretty clear as to who the rock upon the Church is built. The Catholic church is able to show 2000 years of succession of Peter whom Jesus chose to establish the universal (ie. Definition – Catholic – universal – no offense but means nothing more than that) church.

    Matthew 16
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Kelaiah — should Jesus, the Christ, have denied himself at this point in your estimation?

    Perhaps reading noted passages to that effect might be of importance to not omit. Such passages as Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, 4) Take heed that no man deceive you 5) For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Again Kelaiah, not an apostle bu Jesus speaking.
    Should Jesus deny himself in your estimation or is the bible filled with an error in your opinion?

    If you think so, perhaps you could declare simply that you are not Christian so that your bias may be exposed and we fully understand. Simply saying Rome changed
    something and is evil is far reaching without support?

    Isaiah states clearly there is but ONE GOD and but ONE Saviour. I refer you to Isaiah [Chap 41-55] for any further clarification on just how many God’s and Saviours are stated as existing. This has nothing to do with any New testament apostles at that point nor Rome. You see nothing is to be omitted unless you are denouncing that Jesus is the Christ. Note that this is referencing from Isaiah in the OLD testament.

    Isaiah 9:6
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    {Counselor – Mighty God – Father – a Child, a Son)

    LORD and GOD and Saviour — Isaiah 42:8
    8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 43:3
    3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

    How may God’s, Saviours, LORD’s do we have Kelaiah?

    Then again refer to Matthew 24 where Jesus himself speaks. Dare you say Jesus is a blasphemer? Again, not an apostle speaking here but Jesus who is stating he is Christ. Are you saying that this is the lie perpetrated on all of mankind by Catholics? Christ — in Hebrew — anointed — Messias — Messiah. NOT multiple anointed Saviours.

    Note, I am showing the verses from the NKJV bible and not the Catholic version of anything. Perhaps you might enlighten us all with how this is a perverted evil viewpoint that was CHANGED by Rome? I am sure others might be interested in exactly how this is explained and how your view is supported with no authority versus reading the actual Bible in all it’s Glory with no ommission or change as you say you favor.

    Luke 1:42-47
    And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

    46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    In all Sincerity and Peace.
    Glory be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    Amen.

  5. Steve, I would first like to apologize, as I do not believe that this forum was intended for this discourse, but I have been asked to explain true Christianity to RC, in as much as I can here. Thank you!

    RC,

    Answer this in Truth – Who was the author of the “Gospel of Matthew”? You can not. Nobody can. The authorship of most of the books in the Roman Canon is unknown. This is the Truth based on facts, not mere beliefs. I am not the only one who understands these Truths.

    Sir Isaac Newton, in a book published after his death in 1754, after having researched ancient writings, concluded that 1 John 5:7-8 and 1 Timothy 3:16 were changed. The John passage, called ‘Comma Johanneum’, is not found in older Greek texts and has since been removed from some translations.

    I could go on, and on, yet I know you will not believe fact over fiction.

    Also, the ‘Petrine Primacy’ that you speak of can not be proven. Nor can the legitimacy of the ‘councils’ that determined these beliefs (as they are not Truths, they are only unverifiable ‘beliefs’)

    As for the Roman Canon being the ‘Word’ of God, as falsely claimed by much of Modern Christianity, you must look to the actual concept of the ‘Logos’. Anything written by man, up to this point, has been corrupted by the ego of man from the ‘guidance by the disposition of angels’ and is a mere shadow of the actual ‘Word of God’. This concept, that of the Logos, can be understood more clearly as the ‘First Emanation’, the ‘Initial Forethought’, the ‘Expansive Element’. Look around you and you will see the ‘Word of God’, for everything is of God, is God, and is God’s.

    Seek the Truth and you will know. Do not just follow someone blindly into the darkness just because they say they know the way.

    One problem that Modern Christianity (as opposed to the original Christianity practiced by the real followers of Yeshua the Nazirene) is that you look at prophecy through the eyes of the lies of Rome and their false Trinitarian views.

    Yeshua the Nazirene was a Jewish adherent to the Law and the Prophets. He took the Vow of the Nazir (Exodus ch 6) and taught his followers to follow the same Law and Prophets.

    Did I say he was not the Christ? What I said is that he was the ‘First Anointed One’. In Judaic prophecy (and also within the “Revelations of John”), there are TWO ‘Anointed Ones’ who stand by the “LORD of the whole earth” Zechariah 4:11-14. Also see Daniel 12:5. Who is the “LORD of the whole earth”? God (Psalm 47:7). (And, as long as I am giving you a lesson in Truth, the ‘river’ in this vision of Daniel is representative of time. The “Two Anointed Ones” are standing on different shores of this river, thereby living in different times. And, as Yeshua stated, only God knows the time and the dates, the one standing above the river is God. The ‘two witnesses’ within this vision, and the “Revelation of John”, are not standing on the earth together in the same time. While the world is looking for ‘two’ witnesses to appear, one is past and the other is yet to stand. The Lamb and the Lion. Two distinct people. The ‘end times’ for Yeshua was the destruction of the Third Temple, read Herod’s temple. The ‘end times’ for the second ‘Anointed One’ is soon.)

    The two “Anointed Ones” are from the tribe of David and of the tribe of Levi. (See Malachi 2:4-5 and 3:1-4)

    Was the “old testament” changed? Yes. Besides being changed every time a new translation or interpretation is formulated, see Jeremiah 7:21-27 as to the false inclusion of animal sacrifice into the Torah.

    And, this fact alone pierces the Trinitarian views as false. If there was no original ‘sacrifices’ to take away the sins of Israel, how does one justify the view of Yeshua being a scapegoat and ‘dying’ for your sins? You can not. Even 1John 2:6 (as well as other passages) state the Yeshua was the ‘model’ or ‘example’ of how to live and that if we honored him, we should ‘walk as he walked’. Only from within the false teachings of Saul of Tarsus is this form of ‘grace’ and having a ‘scapegoat’ found.

    Tell me, have you taken the Vow of the Nazir? Do you walk as he walked? Have you given all of material possessions up to do the work of God? Do you see all of Creation as Holy? Are you a Servant of God, and of Creation, to safeguard this earth for all generations of man?

    Or, do you follow the false teachings of Saul of Tarsus and of Rome?

    What I am saying is consistent with the true teachings of Yeshua the Nazirene, the Law and the Prophets. Again, these are Truths, not mere beliefs of an organization that was so against Judaism, and the fear of their new religion becoming Judaized, that they created a tremendous state of apostasy the world believed was divinely inspired. In the early Roman church, if you refused to drink the wine, you were charged with heresy and, more than likely, killed. This ‘drinking of the blood’ (as well as other traditions of Rome) was formulated to safeguard this new religion from their adherents taking the Vow of the Nazir. As Yeshua was a Nazir, and taught his followers to do the same (see the ‘vow’ in acts 18:18, 21:23-24, etc.), he would have NEVER told them to drink wine. Fact, not fiction.

    Soon you will see that people will leave these false beliefs. All of the buildings that once housed these traditions, based in apostasy, will be emptied, never again to be occupied. (Acts 7:48-51, Isaiah 66:1-2)

    Why? Because the Lord your God is tired of the egotism and narcissistic nature of your earthly religions. In the Heavens there is no religion, only the adoration of God. You have taken the inheritance of your descendants and are squandering it for your petty desires and lusts. If you continue on this path, future generations of Humanity will be unable to survive upon the earth. That is unacceptable to God. This attitude, and these practices, must be stopped. Soon, you will understand your errant ways.

    Once your eyes are opened, and you let the delusions (Isaiah 66:4) fall, you will see the Truth.

    Until then… learn to live in Unity and seek to unlock the Blessings of God (Psalm 133). Soon, the Sword will be removed from the Tree of Life by the second ‘Anointed One’. Will you be found worthy to share in the Feast?

    May you live in the Peace, Love and Light of the infinite Creator.

  6. RC -

    You stated “Simply saying Rome changed something and is evil is far reaching without support?” I did not simply ‘say’ something without support. There is a great body of evidence to the Truth. Here is but a fraction…

    For you, and all the other seekers of Truth…

    Has the Tanakh (Old Testament) changed?

    Look at the differences between the “Septuagint”, the “Tanakh”, the Roman “Old Testament”, the Protestant “Old Testament”, etc.

    Have the 10 Commandments changed?

    Look at the differences between the original 10 Commandments, the Roman 10 Commandments, the Protestant 10 Commandments.

    Was the Sabbath changed?

    Yes, by Rome from Saturday to Sunday.

    Do we know who wrote the books of the “New Testament”?

    No.

    Yet, if you do not believe me, believe scholars, as properly attributed here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

    You stated “declare simply that you are not Christian so that your bias may be exposed and we fully understand.”

    I am not, and would never align myself, with “Modern Christianity”, or should I say, “Paulinists”, as most sects of “Modern Christianity” are.

    I follow the Law, the Prophets, and the example set forth by Yeshua the Nazirene. As taught by his original followers, refered to in historical documents as the “Ebionites” (poor ones) and “Nazirenes” (those Jewish followers of the Law who have taken the Vow of Nazir).

    There is consistency within these Traditions that is not found within the “Paulinist” traditions born of the apostasy of Rome.

    Frankly, I find offense that “Modern Christianity” even call themselves “Christian” as they are far from the Truth and disrespect the true teachings, and life, of Yeshua the Nazirene, and his followers.

    It is through this Truth that I have a ‘Heart of Flesh’ (Ezekiel 11:19-20). Those who are wise will understand, unfortunately, the wicked will continue to be wicked (Daniel 12:10). But, that is what is determined for us to learn the lesson of “good and evil”, as ‘wisdom is justified by all her children’ (Luke 7:35).

    I do not expect you to ‘get it’, as the Truth shocked even Daniel.

    (And, yes, I do also understand the wisdom of the sayings of Yeshua the Nazirene. I have said the authorship is unknown, and that Rome has changed the writings, but I have never denied that there are great Truths, and Wisdom, within these documents)

    As for your question of if I believe in one, or multiple, gods…

    There is one God, and His name One. (Zechariah 14:9) All is of God, is God, and is God’s. We are in Unity with God, yet subtly separated by the Love of God.

    This is the First Understanding in Truth:
    All of Creation is one entity; is God. Amen!

    May you live in the Peace, Love and Light of the infinite Creator.

  7. RC

    Hello Kelaiah,

    I do not see anywhere where it was asked of you to explain Christianity for me. You appear to put words in a persons mouth where none existed. I did not claim Roman Canon as the WORD of GOD either as you state. You are intentionally misrepresenting the Roman Canon Law. Roman Canon Law does not claim to be the divinely inspired WORD of God in order to replace the Bible.

    I did ask if you were a Christian?

    Just pointing out that you clearly have an agenda if you need to twist what I have clearly written. My specific wording comes directly from the bible and not Roman Canon Law. If there is an agreement it is because Roman Canon Law will never dispel or pervert the WORD as written in the Bible.

    It appears that you clearly have a need to twist the WORD of the Bible and then therefore attack Roman Catholic teaching. Those are not my words taken as my understanding from the Bible. They are the actual WORD from the Bible. They are not expressed as being Canon Law.

    It was asked of you to state whether you are a Christian?
    That answer should appear here as a response of Yes or No.
    I do not see that?

    I wish to not make any assumptions and it should be quite easy then for you to claim your belief as not being a Christian since you claim such firm standing in your estimation to the contrary but again I do no wish to presume. No denial of your belief should be involved. It should be an easy statement to state you are or are not a Christian.

    We all can see that you can quote the understandings of man’s belief based on purely mans own understanding. The Mormons believe up to a point that the Bible was Divinely inspired by God. You clearly wish all to believe that parts here and parts there of the Bible are not truth and to use man to dispel the WORD of God. There is proof that man did write and re-write in the 19th century the book of Mormon. Does that also make the Book of Mormon false and flawed? Which parts would that be?

    You speak from what Authority? Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu? It would be a good thing to take a clear stance for all to understand your position.

    You clearly do not indicate from where you draw your authority. Jesus was clear on whose authority the WORD came from or do you wish to say John 1 is a lie also?

    If so, then clearly, you do not believe in the WORD of GOD as written in the Bible. Therefore, why hide where your true authority is coming from if it is the truth we all need to know and do not have?

    It appears that everyone, who is Christian,is destined for hell? Wouldn’t that be a judgment that you are not capable of making or do you know better than Almighty God?

    Interesting enough the Bible is written from reference of the Hebrew word. The Talmud, the Septuagint, The Torah. Luke is the only one to be shown that was of Greek origin. Are you you also calling the Hebrew word of God false?

    In other words, you believe Man knows better than God. That is exactly what the Israelites did. They believed they knew better than God. In every instance of the bible GOD spoke to show what happens to man, a stiff necked people, when he believes he is in control and that he is equal to God or knows better than God.

    Are you saying man’s thoughts can dare to probe the full depths of Almighty God? Are you saying that you can dare use a scientist to fully explain away who God says he is?

    It surely does read that is what you are saying. Again, in Isaiah, it states that Gods thoughts are not OUR thoughts. God’s ways ARE HIGHER than mans ways.

    Just me, but to me that clearly indicates that man cannot fully understand the true depths of GOD. As a result, man cannot use the logic of man to disprove the WORD of GOD.

    I can accept that GOD is GOD. Yet, it appears that you wish to place YOUR belief and authority in man’s thoughts and teachings rather than God’s truths and state that if a man were to believe the Bible as written, he is the fool?

    I prayerfully ask have you asked Jesus Christ to come into your life?

    Have you asked GOD to show you truly who HE is and to make Himself known to you in Jesus Christ, the LORD? That has nothing to do with me or anyone else’s
    interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

    You see, if you haven’t done that at a minimum, then you speak from ignorance. Not speaking as an insult but you would be speaking from something you know nothing of. That is ignorance.

    That would not be very credible to be professing that you can explain Christianity [ie. to use Your words], when in fact you never have accepted Jesus Christ as LORD and Saviour yet deny Him and claim HE is not who HE says HE is.

    Have you done this? If not, that wouldn’t be very credible to ask me to accept you on faith that your knowledge and understanding is higher than GOD whom I believe is Truth as LORD of my life. While you have never accepted or asked for this and therefore cannot speak in that regard on my behalf or anyone else who has done such.

    Speaking of something you have never asked to receive the Truth on directly from the source, GOD, not man, yet speaking in authority does not lend any credibility to your position.

    Have you asked Jesus Christ to make himself known to you in truth? If you say you have, Are you saying the LORD, Failed to make himself known to you? I can honestly say anyone that says they have asked GOD to come into their heart and make Himself in truth known, has never been known to fail. Are you then saying GOD would fail you if you asked or that HE has failed you when you did ask?

    In addition, to be clear, you call Paul an antichrist.
    There is no proof of your claim yet you make that based on I guess again an interpretation by man of a writing from Joseph Smith from the 19th century or another?

    Paul, started as a persecutor of the Way and then he received clearly blinding testimony as to who Jesus Christ is. So was Paul a faithful servant when he persecuted those who believed in the WAY, Jesus Christ and an antichrist afterwards when he converted to believe in Jesus Christ?

    I understand why you have to claim Paul as an antichrist.
    If Paul was accepted by you as Truth, where would you be but denying Jesus as Christ and as Messiah. In addition, do you claim Peter and all the apostles to be antichrists?
    They all did proclaim Jesus as LORD and as the Christ too.

    Paul, emphatically to his death, proclaims Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour. Therefore to discredit Paul by using man’s view, surely then in your estimation Jesus cannot be LORD, GOD and Saviour is what you are saying falsely.

    Man today will not die for a lie let alone the truth, yet you claim all those that died professing Jesus as LORD and SAVIOUR were an antichrist?

    I CAN speak from what life is without Jesus Christ as LORD and SAVIOUR for I too once was ignorant AND I can speak from what life is WITH Jesus Christ as LORD and SAVIOUR. Can you say the same?

    Since I will ask again, Have you accepted Jesus Christ at any point in your life ever?

    Please state that response here to show from where you have established your authority if you have never asked to have this? If you have not, you are hardly in a position of strength to say anything in regards to whether Jesus is LORD for anyone if you never asked him to be LORD of your own life and free will. That is true and not my interpretation. If You have never asked, how can you say HE, Jesus, is not LORD?

    The Scribes, Pharisees, [ie. Jewish and Hebrew Church elders] said the same. Jesus, in front of them, proclaimed and forgave man’s sin in many instances [ex. Luke:5] and including dying on the cross as HIS evidence. The Hebrew and Jew agree that only GOD forgives sin. So, you also must claim Jesus as an antichrist as well since HE did HEAL and HE Forgives sins.
    Many, many passages indicate this.

    I use no tricks. I referred you to the OLD testament to state whether Rome re-wrote the OLD Testament. You said the OLD testament was changed when you initially pointed all fingers at Rome and Catholic clearly. Why back-off Rome as the culprit and then say only ‘changed’ in your next response without again stating Rome?

    The Bible was written in Aramaic and Hebrew and Greek not Roman Catholic. A Vulgate to Latin followed. It appears again that you lose the credibility you intended when there is no proof that Rome or Any Catholic church or Roman Cannon teaching changed the Bible but carried forward the WORD as it was written unto this day.
    There are many language translations and nobody disputes a language translation. Such will be any source you proclaim as an authority as well. It is a moot point.
    Either you believe and accept or you don’t.

    Perhaps you will enlighten all from the perspective of someone who has never accepted Christ yet professes to “explain” the Truth, the Way and Life of Christ and Christianity moreso than those of the Bible who lived and died for their faith in Christ, professing to their Death?
    Yet, if you admit you never asked Jesus to come into your life ever to make himself known, you mock all who have died in Christ.

    You are clearly after the last word here as if man’s understanding is critical to know versus what GOD clearly states. I humbly can not say my words or thoughts are higher than GOD.

    I can tell you all day how Jesus is GOD and LORD. As you clearly demonstrate, it is meaningless to you. Anyone who does is called antichrist by you. It will always be meaningless to you unless you ask HIM to be part of your life personally yourself. That has nothing to do with me but everything to do with you.

    I do know that ignorance is no longer an excuse that can be used once the truth is made known to ask of GOD to make Himself known and to continually seek GOD and ask from the LORD and you shall find. That is all I am asked to do is to proclaim Jesus Christ as LORD and Saviour and it is for you to decide whether your knee will bow at the name of Jesus, as stated in Philippians 2.

    It truly is in your hands. We each will stand before the face of GOD and be asked. Refusal to ask of GOD and to seek the fullness of GOD to make this truth known would be to deny the very existence of GOD and be denial that GOD IS LORD over man.

    Prayerfully,
    Glory be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

  8. RC,

    I believe I answered your questions, but, as this is a great exercise in understanding, I will respect you with answering your new questions. Will you have the time, understanding, or respect to answer the questions that I posed to you?

    You asked: “I did ask if you were a Christian?”
    You asked: “It was asked of you to state whether you are a Christian?”

    And, I answered this. Unfortunately, your definition of what is a Christian, is based on the teachings of Rome. Mine is based on the Teachings of Yeshua the Nazirene (The true name of the historical person you, and many ‘Paulists’, refer to as Jesus.) You are assuming that following the teachings of Yeshua the Nazirene is a religion, it is not. It is a series of traditions and practices for ‘living’ in ‘Righteousness’. The Law and the Prophets that Yeshua the Nazirene spoke of gave an example of how to live so that we might unlock the Blessings of God – in this life, and upon the earth. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. If you die, you will enter into the ‘recompense’, or, as is a common translation of the teachings of Yeshua the Nazirene, the ‘regeneration’. (BTW, Yeshua the Nazirene healed, not by his own power, but by that of these Blessings of God through his ‘Righteousness’. You can do the same, if you live in ‘Righteousness’ and live according to his example.)

    You asked: “Does that also make the Book of Mormon false and flawed? Which parts would that be?”

    I do not know, as I have never read the “Book of Mormon”, but I would like to see the metal plates from which it was derived to verify the authenticity of it’s ancient origins.

    You asked: “You speak from what Authority? Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu?”

    Stephen stated “Who have received the law by the disposition of angels” Acts 7:54. If you understood my previous statements, you would have understanding. My Authority is the Infinite Creator, the one you refer to in your language as God. “In the Heavens there is no religion, only the adoration of God”. How can one have authority in these subjects from a standpoint of a religion of man, as religions of man have no authority in the Heavens? My authority rests in the Heavens.

    You asked: “Jesus was clear on whose authority the WORD came from or do you wish to say John 1 is a lie also?”

    You are confused about the understanding of what the writer of John meant when he used the term “LOGOS”, or “WORD”, as the inherent limitations of your language dictates. (Fact – ancient Aramaic had under 500 total words in it’s vocabulary. Stories and parables had to be told to explain higher concepts that we take for granted today. You understand ‘respect’ which would have taken a story to explain in Aramaic.)

    You asked: “Therefore, why hide where your true authority is coming from if it is the truth we all need to know and do not have?”

    I answered this. If you understood Prophecy, you would understand what I stated.

    You asked: “It appears that everyone, who is Christian,is destined for hell?”

    Actually, hell, and satan, is a recent concept that was formed within the middle ages stemming from Ha-Satan, an angel of God found in Judaism. What we encounter is more likened to a ‘healing’. The original term, as spoken of earlier, is the ‘recompense’ or ‘regeneration’. You either learn your lesson, or you don’t. Our goal in this life is to become One again with God in Unity, as is the goal of all entities in the Heavens. Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect!

    You asked: “Are you you also calling the Hebrew word of God false?”

    You are twisting my words now. I stated previously that I follow the Law, the Prophets and the teachings of the first ‘Anointed One’, Yeshua the Nazirene. Yeshua was Jewish and followed certain Jewish traditions found within the “Tanakh”. Do you follow his teachings?

    You stated: “In other words, you believe Man knows better than God.”

    Why do you disrespect me like this? I have spoken just the opposite. The ego of man prevents man from being altruistic, thereby keeping man from fashioning himself after God, and unlocking the Blessings of God. Our struggle is with our egotistical and narcissistic nature.

    You asked: “Are you saying man’s thoughts can dare to probe the full depths of Almighty God? Are you saying that you can dare use a scientist to fully explain away who God says he is?”

    No. I do not understand where you got the idea that I was trying to ‘explain away who God says He is’, I was giving you information on the Truth of the origins of the Roman texts. But, the Oracles of God, the Avatars of God, the Prophets of God, the Priests (Levites) of God, whichever terms you wish to use, are given the gifts of Wisdom and Knowledge. “For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.” Malachi 2:7

    You stated: “As a result, man cannot use the logic of man to disprove the WORD of GOD.”

    How can you disprove something that you are living within? Understand the true meaning of the ‘Word of God’ and you will be closer to the Truth of Unity, and the purpose of our lives.

    You asked: “Yet, it appears that you wish to place YOUR belief and authority in man’s thoughts and teachings rather than God’s truths and state that if a man were to believe the Bible as written, he is the fool?”

    No, to the first half. I am stating the Truth of God. No, to the second half. The writings in question teach mankind the lesson of ‘good and evil’. If a man were to understand the Truth, they would see that Truth. I called no man a fool. We are all children of the Living God. I have love for all, as all are of God. Wisdom is justified by all her children.

    You asked: “I prayerfully ask have you asked Jesus Christ to come into your life?”

    I think I have made myself clear on this point.

    You asked, and stated: “Have you asked GOD to show you truly who HE is and to make Himself known to you in Jesus Christ, the LORD? That has nothing to do with me or anyone else’s interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.”

    Yes, that is an interpretation, plain and simple. It does not stand in Truth. God HAS made Himself known to me. You are assuming by stating ‘Holy Scriptures’ that there is some inherent authority in these writings. There is none. The ‘Word of God’ existed eons before mankind learned to write. Well, since the moment of Creation.

    You stated: “You see, if you haven’t done that at a minimum, then you speak from ignorance. Not speaking as an insult but you would be speaking from something you know nothing of. That is ignorance.”

    I could twist this around for you, but I feel saddened that your mind is closed to the Truth.

    You stated, and asked: “That would not be very credible to be professing that you can explain Christianity [ie. to use Your words], when in fact you never have accepted Jesus Christ as LORD and Saviour yet deny Him and claim HE is not who HE says HE is. Have you done this?”

    No. I have never claimed that Yeshua the Nazirene was anyone other than who he was. You, on the other hand, have only arguments based on the false teachings of Rome and Saul of Tarsus. It is you who deny the Truth, and the first ‘Anointed One’.

    You stated: “In addition, to be clear, you call Paul an antichrist.”

    His name was Saul of Tarsus. He renamed himself so that he might glean on a prophecy of Isaiah. The “Book of Acts” details this. Saul lied three times as to seeing Yeshua in the desert as his story changed three times. When the Holy Spirit told him not to go into Asia, he denied the Holy Spirit and went anyways. He performed all kinds of ‘miracles’ that were very unusual and were not gifts of the Holy Spirit. Remember what was written about ‘if they say that I am in the desert’, ‘in secret places’, ‘performing miracles’, ‘deny the Holy Spirit’? AND, when Saul went to Rome, the Brethren did not send a letter of approval, or denial, about him, they chose to ignore him, as he ‘went out from them’. Saul was the antichrist that Yeshua spoke of. A dog returns to it’s vomit.

    You asked: “In addition, do you claim Peter and all the apostles to be antichrists?:

    No.

    You asked: “Man today will not die for a lie let alone the truth, yet you claim all those that died professing Jesus as LORD and SAVIOUR were an antichrist?”

    Please do not disrespect me. I never stated this.

    You stated: “The Hebrew and Jew agree that only GOD forgives sin. So, you also must claim Jesus as an antichrist as well since HE did HEAL and HE Forgives sins.”

    You really need to read your texts. Yeshua stated that his power was from God. He made no claim to these acts being of his own accord. You are not only mistaken, but really don’t understand the Truth. Yeshua the Nazirene WAS Jewish. He also understood, and stated, the same things. Please read your texts.

    You stated and asked: “I use no tricks. I referred you to the OLD testament to state whether Rome re-wrote the OLD Testament. You said the OLD testament was changed when you initially pointed all fingers at Rome and Catholic clearly. Why back-off Rome as the culprit and then say only ‘changed’ in your next response without again stating Rome?”

    You are not reading my responses.

    You stated: “I can tell you all day how Jesus is GOD and LORD. As you clearly demonstrate, it is meaningless to you. Anyone who does is called antichrist by you. It will always be meaningless to you unless you ask HIM to be part of your life personally yourself.”

    You are putting words in my mouth. And, it sounds like you are evangelizing. You are not speaking from a point of Truth, but based on flawed beliefs invented by a religion of man.

    You stated: “That is all I am asked to do is to proclaim Jesus Christ as LORD and Saviour and it is for you to decide whether your knee will bow at the name of Jesus, as stated in Philippians 2.”

    These are false teachings and the basis of the apostasy. Please read Revelations 19:10, worship God. We are all fellowservants of God, yes, even Yeshua the Nazirene.

    You are not asked to worship anyone but God, and to live in Righteousness. If you want to believe in a scapegoat, that is your choice. You seem to be very conflicted. Nobody can save yourself, but yourself. “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect”. Yeshau did not say “Be perfect as I am perfect”. Can it be any more clear?

    May you live in the Peace, Love and Light of the infinite Creator

  9. Thaddeus

    Kelaiah, I am fascinated by your beliefs. Do you share them with a group or are they a result of independent study? How has your discipleship to Yeshua’s teachings blessed your life?

  10. Hi Thaddeus,

    You asked: “How has your discipleship to Yeshua’s teachings blessed your life?”

    It is not a discipleship to Yeshua’s teachings.

    It is an understanding of the Truth as Yeshua knew it.

    As I know it. As it is at the core of all major religions of man, before they were corrupted by the ego of man, knew it.

    It is the understanding of the Infinite Creator.

    And, until now, that Understanding has not had a language so rich as this. If you would like to know what it all means, I will explain it to you, as I am but a servant of our Infinite Creator.

    You receive no blessings being in discipleship with Yeshua’s teachings. You, and the many that have fallen trap to the religions of men, see Yeshua’s role differently than it should be. He was the first witness, the first Anointed One. He spoke of this Truth. He talked of the Law and the Prophets of Israel. He spoke of nothing really new, he just spoke with the True Understanding. He is a fellow servant, as you or I.

    You only receive the True Blessings when you become closer in Unity with your fellow man, with Creation, with the Infinite Creator, whom you know as God.

    If you would throw away everything else and concentrate on service for man without the expectation of reward, then you, and the world, would be closer to the Truth.

    Stop destroying the earth for your lusts and desires. Go plant a fruit or nut tree every month to replenish the earth. Think about future generations of man and the longevity, and sustainability, of Humanity. Fast and give your food to the poor. Give shelter to those who are homeless. Raise the valleys and bring down the mountains.

    You are all equal, and as angels, to our Infinite Creator. Should you not treat each other as such?

    These are the types of activities you gain Blessings from.

    Was this a trick question?

    You asked: “Do you share them with a group or are they a result of independent study?”

    As these are all Truths of the living God, and not mere beliefs, I share these Understandings in Truth with everyone, they just do not have understanding yet.

    But soon, very soon, they will know. Whether they understand, or not, well, that is their choice. I am but the Teacher, listen with your heart, and you will know.

    You live in the delusions of your making, or you walk in Unity.

    Creation is really quite simple to Understand. It is our ego that makes it difficult.

    Thank you, Thaddeus, for your fascination. I hope that it turns into Understanding as you live in the Peace, Love and Light of the Infinite Creator.

  11. Thaddeus,

    I wanted to expand, and clarify, the Teachings.

    It has been said that Joseph Smith was told by God, “Verily I say unto you, that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal.”

    These are false teachings. All of the Laws, and the Prophets, were of a temporal (material) nature. They all related on how to care for ourselves, others, and all of Creation.

    The one you know as God, is everything – Spiritual and Temporal. That is how God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient.

    We, as living entities, within the delusion of the Temporal, are given the task to show that we can take care of that which was put before us.

    When we can show that we can take care of those things that we have been given (Temporal), then we will be bestowed the Blessings of the Spiritual.

    I can illustrate this many ways, but, let us say you are getting your drivers license. Do you thing the authorities will give you a license to drive on the open road if you cannot even pass the test of the closed, practice course?

    So too is it with the Spiritual.

    The man you know as Yeshua loosed the sword guarding the Tree of Life, and showed us “The Way” to remove it so that the Blessings of God could flow through to all of Humanity.

    Are you prepared to join hands to remove the binds of the Spiritual, to help repair the breach of apostasy, and live in Unity, as our Creator intended?

    This is the path to the Messianic age. This is the path to Unity. He who has Wisdom will follow, and live in true Righteousness.

    May you live in the Peace, Love and Light of the Infinite Creator.

  12. Bus

    I would hardly equate God with the DMV, but to elaborate further your example, the laws on the driving range are the same as those on the open road. And success on the driving range equates to success on the road, thus the laws that are given operate in both realms.
    To provide a Joseph Smith example, he was commanded to have the saints build a temple in Kirkland. Some may look back on that episode and see how the building of the temple brought the church together and strengthened the community of saints. Although that was a by product of the commandment the purpose was spiritual. I believe that was the point of Joseph Smith’s declaration, that God is concerned with the spiritual intent of his commandments and although they may improve things in the temporal realm the real purpose is to bring men’s souls back to God.

  13. I just wrote an article about this very topic and I feel it will clarify many of the questions and discussion people have made here. http://dunked.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-many-gods-do-mormons-believe-in.html

  14. Deacon

    So, it seems pretty clear that you are stating that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are completely separate divine beings. Obviously, if Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus the Son in the same vision, and they both had ‘flesh and bone’ this is the only logical conclusion.

    However, there are many variances in the versions of the first vision delivered by Joseph Smith. It seems clear to me based on the first account of the first vision and the testimony of the three witnesses in the preface of the Book of Mormon; that at its inception, and well after the first vision was supposed to have occured, Mormonism did believe in a triune God.

    In case you’re not familiar with it, (and please look this up in your own Book of Mormon), the testimony of the three witnesses ends with an affirmation of the trinity. “And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.”

    The questions then, that must be asked – when did that change? (When did Mormons begin to believe in a plurality of Gods? When did Mormons begin to deny that there is but one God?). And – why did it change? (What beliefs of Mormonism cannot be reconciled with monotheism? What doctrines oppose a belief in a triune God?)

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