Ktieb ta 'Mormon Insara
mill BretIl-poplu Nephite tal-Ktieb ta 'Mormon li l-abitat l-Ameriki bejn 600 BC u 400 AD kienu, fil-punti l-aktar fl-istorja, a nies twajbin. Dan huwa, huma kellhom knisja ta 'Kristu stabbilit fosthom li fiha kienu mgħallma l-Evanġelju ta' Ġesù Kristu. Huma għexu mil-liġi ta 'Mosè u miżmuma l-kmandamenti mogħtija lilhom mill-profeti ta' Alla. Fi żminijiet ta 'ħażen, kienu humbled mill-Mulej permezz xabla jew ġuħ. Fi żminijiet ta 'tjieba, huma prosperità u ngħataw saħħa biex jipproteġu lilhom infushom mill-għedewwa tagħhom. Dan kien skond il-wegħdiet magħmula mill-Mulej. "U [l-Mulej] hath qal li: Safejn ye għandu jżomm il-kmandamenti tiegħi ye għandhom jirnexxu fl-art, imma safejn ye mhux se jżomm il-kmandamenti tiegħi ye għandhom jinqatgħu mill-preżenza tiegħi" ( 2 Nephi 01:20 ).
Kien hemm profeziji ħafna u Iskrittura li l-Nephites kellhom u kollha kemm huma osservat għal Kristu Ġesù li kienet għadha ma ġejjin. A profeta jismu Nephi, li għex madwar 600 QK, kiteb, "U nitkellmu ta 'Kristu, aħna tiċċelebra fi Kristu, aħna jippridkaw ta' Kristu, aħna Prophesy ta 'Kristu, u aħna jikteb skond profeziji tagħna, li t-tfal tagħna tista' tkun taf dak li sors jistgħu jfittxu għal maħfra ta 'dnubiethom "( 2 Nephi 25:26 ). Huma kienu ħerqana lejn Kristu ħafna bl-istess mod aħna nħarsu lura lejn il-ħajja tiegħu hawn fuq earth u ħerqana li tieni tiegħu ġejjin. Profeti oħra bħal Benjamin , Abinadi , Alma u ħafna oħrajn mgħallma-poplu dwar Kristu, li tagħti xhieda tagħhom ukoll. Huma kollha kienu jafu 'Kristu u kien jaf li Hu kien jidħol biex jifdu poplu tiegħu.
Ta 'l-istejjer, lezzjonijiet u profeziji fil-Ktieb ta' Mormon, ħadd huma kif qawwija u lanqas ta 'importanza tant kbira meta Ġesù Kristu nnifsu żar il-poplu hawn fil-kontinent Amerikan. Biss ħames snin qabel it-twelid tiegħu, profeta ntbagħtet fost il-poplu msemmija Samuel. Profeziji tiegħu kienu eċċezzjonalment sempliċi u preċiż.
U behold, huwa qal unto minnhom: Behold, I jagħti unto you sinjal; għal ħames snin aktar cometh, u behold, allura cometh-Iben ta 'Alla li jifdi lil dawk kollha li għandhom jemmnu fuq ismu. U behold, dan se nagħti unto you for sinjal fil-ħin ta ġejjin tiegħu; għall behold, għandu jkun hemm dwal kbira fis-sema, insomuch li fil-lejl qabel ma cometh m'għandux ikun hemm dlam, insomuch li għandha tidher unto bniedem bħallikieku kienet ġurnata. Għalhekk, għandu jkun hemm ġurnata u lejl u jum ... u għandu jkun il-lejl qabel ma titwieled. U behold, għandu stilla ġdida jinqalgħu, bħal waħda li intom qatt ma beheld. U behold dan mhux kollox, għandu jkun hemm ħafna sinjali u tistaqsi fis-sema. Helaman 14:2-6
Profeziji u sinjali ta 'mewt ta' Kristu kienu wkoll mogħtija.
Iżda behold, kif għidt unto you dwar sinjal ieħor, sinjal tal-mewt tiegħu, behold ... ix-xemx għandhom ikunu mudlama ... u wkoll il-qamar u l-istilel, u m'għandu jkun hemm l-ebda dawl fuq il-wiċċ ta 'din l-art, anke mill- żmien li huwa għandu jbati mewt ... il-ħin li hu għandu jerġgħu jogħlew mill-imwiet. Sen, fil-waqt li huwa għandu jagħti l-fatat għandu jkun hemm thunderings u lightnings għall-ispazju ta 'ħafna sigħat, u l-earth għandu ħawwad u tremble ... u għandu jkun hemm ħafna postijiet li issa huma msejħa widien li jkollom muntanji ... U awtostradi ħafna għandhom ikunu mfarrka, u ħafna bliet għandhom jsiru desolate. U oqbra ħafna għandhom jinfetħu ... u qaddisin ħafna għandhom jidhru unto ħafna. Helaman 14:20-25
Samuel spjega wkoll il-missjoni ta 'Kristu fuq l-earth u l-importanza li ġejjin Tiegħu. Ħafna nies ma jemmnu kliem Samuel iżda li ma waqfitx milli jiġu biex jgħaddu. Il-lejl qagħdu mixgħula ħames snin wara, u stilla ġdida deher. Tlieta u tletin sena wara li, terremoti u tempesti livellata bliet u dlam pprevaliet għal tlett ijiem. Għas-superstiti, madankollu, Kristu nnifsu deher.
Kapitoli 11 permezz 28 ta ' 3 Nephi fihom kliem tiegħu u l-atti fost il-poplu. Huwa tippermettilhom li jiġu lilu tkun l-ewwel idejn xhieda tal-verità tal-qawmien tiegħu. Huwa għażel 12-irġiel li jkunu għalliema u l-mexxejja, li tagħtihom l-awtorità u kmandamenti li jappartjenu għall-magħmudija. Imbagħad, Huwa taw lill-persuni kollha l-kliem li Hu taw lill-Lhud fuq il-Sermon dwar il-Muntanja (ara Mattew 5 u 3 Nephi 12 ).
Matul l-jiem li ġejjin, Huwa kompla biex jgħallmu lilhom l-Iskrittura, fejqan morda tagħhom , jagħtihom l- sagrament , u nitolbu magħhom. Nixtieq jinkoraġġixxi lil kulħadd biex taqra dawn il-kliem għaliex huma eżempji bħal dawn li jmissu 'l-imħabba ta' Kristu għall-poplu tiegħu. L-effett li din iż-żjara kellha fuq il-poplu ma kienx minsija. Għal mijiet ta 'snin, il-poplu kienu diliġenti fil wara l-kliem li Ġesù kien mogħti lilhom u ma kienx qabel kienu tbegħditx mill-kliem li huma kienu fallew, hekk kif previst ħafna drabi qabel.
Il-Ktieb ta 'Mormon huwa ktieb notevoli u fih ħafna lezzjonijiet li huma applikabbli fil-ħajja tagħna. Hija turi wkoll il-verità sublimi li Ġesù hu l-Kristu , u li Hu kkomunikati lilu nnifsu lill-poplu tiegħu hawn anciently. Huma kienu jafu Kien Salvatur tagħhom mill-mewt u dnub u dawn imħares kliem tiegħu u kienu mbierka. L-istess jgħodd għalina llum ukoll. Billi x-xhieda tagħhom u l-xhieda tal-Ispirtu s-Santu, nistgħu know dawk veritajiet istess.
Grazzi għall javżak hekk sempliċi u ukoll kif Kristu iċċentrati-Ktieb ta 'Mormon hu.
Nixtieq li jitkellmu kollha Mormons u dawk kollha li qed jikkunsidraw moromonism biex tiżgura hemm fehim. Il-Mulej Alla huwa l-Alla biss ... perjodu. Hemm wieħed biss sema, u biss mod wieħed biex naslu s'hemm, u li huwa permezz tal-salvazzjoni ta 'Ġesù Kristu. Int trid staqsi lilu fil-qalb tiegħek u fil-ħajja tiegħek biex tkun Salvatur tiegħek. Biss ladarba inti taċċetta lilu ser tifhem il-pjan li Hu għandu għall-ħajja tiegħek. Ma jimpurtax f'liema reliġjon int. Battista, tan-Nofsinhar Battista, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, eċċ Alla ma care about reliġjon, Huwa cares dwar qalb tiegħek u inti taf Jaf qalb tiegħek. M'hemm l-ebda tmur enfer u jkollna dnubiet tiegħek mnaddfa u ma jitħallew fis-ġenna. Inti ma għandekx biex jemmnu fi kwalunkwe tagħlim barra l-tagħlim tal-Mulej. I love kollha inti u nitolbu li l-Mulej timla int se Ispirtu s-Santu tiegħu u jiġbed inti qrib lilu! Li inti jsiru jafu lilu u r-relazzjoni personali Huwa qed jistenna li jkollhom miegħek!
Grazzi ukoll għall-opinjoni tiegħek, Maranda. Jidher qisu inti ħadthom jinstemgħu twemmin tagħna minn nies oħra minbarra Mormons. Għaliex ma poke madwar ftit fuq is-sit u ara dak li aħna verament nemmnu?
Ħej Thaddeus - dan huwa Brandon. Nittamaw li l-mixi sejjer tajjeb.
Għandi xi mistoqsijiet dwar l-Nephites u arkeoloġija. Jien ma tipprova li jkun biss picky jew punt l-iżbalji, imma kemm hu kbir kien dan il-grupp nies? Fejn kienu dawn ġeografikament fil Ameriki? Have sabu rekord minnhom?
Wieħed mill-Nephites midfun il-ktieb tad-deheb li Smith skoperti ... fejn kienet li? Forsi Għandi l-istorja ħażina hemm.
Xorta waħda ... grazzi għall-ħin tiegħek ... biss xi mistoqsijiet li kelli.
Brandon, tajjeb li nisimgħu minn għandek! I ma jkunux verament kien mixi ħafna peress Goblin Valley, iżda bil-semestru biss dwar fuq, nispera għall-bidla li dalwaqt.
Grazzi għall tistaqsi dawn il-mistoqsijiet importanti. Lottijiet ta 'riċerka marret fil-Ktieb ta' Mormon artijiet u ammont sorprendenti ta 'tikkorrobora provi daret up, iżda ħafna mill-archeologists u antropoloġi ngħidu aħna biss scratched-wiċċ.
Il-fehma prevalenti fost ir-riċerkaturi llum hija li l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon fil-Dinja l-Ġdida koperti ħafna ġeografija limitat ta 'ftit mijiet ta' mili, u li l-familja Lehi ta probabbilment integrati ma 'kulturi diġà hawn. Fi ftit ftit vapur sħiħa ta 'forsi għexieren ta' persuni ballooned f'żewġ ċiviltajiet kbar ġenerazzjonijiet Lehi fuq: il-Nephites u l-Lamanites. Aktar tard fil-ktieb il-poplu huma magħduda fil-miljuni.
Għad hemm xi tilwima dwar fejn eżattament l-Nephites u Lamanites għexu, iżda konsensus li qed jikber fost akkademiċi postijiet fil Mesoamerica (Nofsinhar-Messiku u Gwatemala). Il-logħbiet tal-art li deskritti fil-Ktieb ta 'Mormon, u ċiviltajiet numerazzjoni fil-miljuni qamet hemmhekk. Il-ċiviltà Nephite normalment mqabbla ma Mayans Preclassic tard, u l-Jaredites (1 Ktieb preċedenti ta 'Mormon grupp) huwa identifikat mal-Olmecs.
Brandon, peress li inti fil-Gwatemala, inti fil-pożizzjoni enviable ta 'tħares lejn xi wħud minn dawn il-pretensjonijiet yourself. I imħabba biex tkompli tiddiskuti dan is-suġġett miegħek.
Huwa ġeneralment jemmnu li Moroni, l-iben ta 'Mormon (il-Guy li ġeneralment miġbura l-pjanċi tad-deheb) ħa l-pjanċi fuq vjaġġ minn Amerika Ċentrali sal-kosta lejn New York, fejn hu midfun fil-għoljiet lil Joseph Smith li ssib aktar tard. Of course, tali serje serendipitous ta 'avvenimenti tista' tkun biss attribwita bħala miraklu minn Alla, iżda dan huwa l-ktieb eżistenza stess.
Moroni kien jaf li tieħu l-ktieb bil-valur nominali jkun diffiċli għal xi nies. Fl-aħħar kapitolu tiegħu, huwa jipproponi li immorru l-Ultimate, Awtorità Finali u jistaqsi lilu jekk dan kollu veru:
"Behold, nixtieq jeżorta lill inti li meta ye għandu jaqra dawn l-affarijiet, jekk ikun għerf f'Alla li ye għandhom jaqrawhom, li ye se tiftakar kif ħniena tal-Mulej hath kien unto-tfal ta 'l-irġiel, mill-ħolqien ta' Adam anke isfel sakemm il-ħin li ye għandhom jirċievu dawn l-affarijiet, u ponder fil qlubkom.
"U meta ye għandhom jirċievu dawn l-affarijiet, nixtieq jeżorta lill inti li ye titlob Alla, il-Missier Etern, fl-isem ta 'Kristu, jekk dawn l-affarijiet mhux veru, u jekk ye għandha titlob bil-qalb sinċiera, b'intenzjoni reali, wara fidi fi Kristu, hu se manifest l-verità ta 'dan unto you, mill-qawwa tal-Ispirtu s-Santu.
"U mill-qawwa tal-Ispirtu s-Santu ye jista 'jsir jaf il-verità ta' l-affarijiet." Moroni 10:3-5
Naf li l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon huwa minnu għaliex Missier Heavenly tiegħi wieġeb talb tiegħi. Arkeoloġija serva bħala back-up u ssaħħaħ din xhieda oriġinali, iżda huwa kważi l-awtorità finali meta niġu għall-verità reliġjuża. Gaat wkoll jagħmilha kwistjoni ta 'talb?
Hey Thaddeus -
Grazzi għall-indirizzar ta 'dawn il-mistoqsijiet. I am fil-Gwatemala iżda dak I sabu riċerka istorja Maja ma jkunx inkoraġġanti lilek. Imma inti aġġornati ta 'punt differenti li nixtieq li jiddiskutu. Ma jimpurtax f'liema arkeoloġija ġestiti biex ħaffer (litteralment) ma taffettwax it-twemmin tiegħek fil-veraċità tal-Ktieb ta 'Mormon so I ma tara l-ebda bżonn li tiġi diskussa aktar.
I jkollhom hard time tirrikonċilja l-versi li ġejjin minn 2 Pietru kapitolu 1:
"1Simon Peter, qaddej u appostlu ta 'Ġesù Kristu, li minnhom li kisbu bħal fidi prezzjuż magħna permezz tal-tjieba ta' Alla u Salvatur Ġesù Kristu:
2Grace u l-paċi jiġi mmultiplikat unto inti permezz tal-għarfien ta 'Alla, u ta' Ġesù Sidna, 3According bħala qawwa divina tiegħu hath mogħtija unto us affarijiet kollha li jappartjenu unto ħajja u godliness, permezz tal-għarfien minnu li hath imsejħa ahna glorja u l-virtù : 4Whereby huma mogħtija unto us aktar wegħdiet kbar u prezzjużi: li minn dawn ye partakers jista 'jkun tan-natura divina, wara li ħarbet l-korruzzjoni li hija fid-dinja permezz Lust "
Peter kiteb li żmien twil qabel l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon kien tradott. U Alla jgħid permezz Peter li fil-Bibbja għandna "Skond kif qawwa divina tiegħu hath mogħtija unto us affarijiet kollha li jappartjenu unto ħajja u godliness."
Jgħid ġejna mogħtija "affarijiet kollha li jappartjenu għall-ħajja u godliness". Jgħid imbagħad li aħna ngħataw dawk l-affarijiet "permezz tal-għarfien minnu li hath imsejħa magħna għall-glorja u l-virtù: 4Whereby huma mogħtija unto us aktar wegħdiet kbar u prezzjużi: li minn dawn ye partakers jista 'jkun tan-natura divina, wara li ħarbet l- korruzzjoni li hija fid-dinja permezz Lust "
Għaliex għandi bżonn il-Ktieb ta 'Mormon biex jgħixu virtuż, il-ħajja glorjuża? Din is-silta jgħidlekx me I li ġew mogħtija "wegħdiet li jeċċedu kbira u prezzjuż", u "affarijiet kollha li jappartjenu għall-ħajja u godliness" u li billi dawn l-affarijiet I jista 'jkun partaker fin-natura divina, "wara li ħarbet l-korruzzjoni li hija fid-dinja permezz Lust ".
Għaliex għandi bżonn xi ħaġa oħra? Sure hemm oħrajn tajba, affarijiet vera li mhumiex fil-Bibbja, imma dan il-poeżiji fil-kuntest jgħidlekx me li Ġesù, bil-fidi tiegħi fiH, tani l-affarijiet kollha meħtieġa għal, Godly qaddis, virtuż, il-ħajja isbaħ ħielsa minn l-korruzzjoni li hija fid-dinja. Għaliex kieku Alla tmur lura u żid xi ħaġa aktar tard meta Huwa diġà qal li dak li Hu kien mogħti lilna biżżejjed?
I ser jammettu, I talab din: "Nixtieq jeżorta lill inti li ye titlob Alla, il-Missier Etern, fl-isem ta 'Kristu, jekk dawn l-affarijiet mhux veru, u jekk ye għandha titlob bil-qalb sinċiera, bil-ħsieb reali , wara fidi fi Kristu, hu se manifest l-verità ta 'dan unto you, mill-qawwa tal-Ghost.And Mqaddsa mill-qawwa tal-Ispirtu s-Santu ye jista' jsir jaf il-verità ta 'l-affarijiet kollha. "
I talab li "bil-qalb sinċiera, b'intenzjoni reali, wara fidi fi Kristu". U Alla wasslitni sabiex il-poeżiji fi 2 Pietru 1 u ħassejtni ħruq qawwi ħafna fis-sider tiegħi li l-affarijiet fil Moroni u l-bqija tal-Ktieb ta 'Mormon kienu tabilħaqq MHUX veru u li l-Alla tal-Bibbja huwa differenti minn l-alla tal-Ktieb ta 'Mormon.
I talab dan, Thaddeus, u Alla manifestat unto me li dak li inti taħseb hija veru huwa attwalment falza u mhux minn Alla.
Kif inti jirrikonċilja dawk l-affarijiet?
Brandon, jekk dan huwa t-tweġiba Alla taw inti, allura inti jridu jsegwuha.
I jkollhom raġuni għaliex jissuspettaw li ma kienx Rispons tiegħu, iżda li hija kwistjoni bejnek u Alla. Nittama li Kristjan kif maturi kif inti tista tell-differenza bejn l-Ispirtu s-Santu u x-xewqat mfassla minn qabel tiegħek stess.
I joffru xi ftit mistoqsijiet biex timmeditaw fuq, fil-privat ma 'Missier Heavenly tiegħek:
1 - Kif ħafna mill-Ktieb ta 'Mormon ma Naqra?
2 - Did I tagħtiha għal proċess ġust, jew kienet ċaħdet qabel I qabad it up?
3 - Ma kien b'intenzjoni reali Jekk Alla kien qalli li kien veru, ma I ħsiebhom jadottaw dan jew li kieku jien ċaħditha jew mod?
4 - Do Nemmen li "mill-qawwa tal-Ispirtu s-Santu [I] jista 'jsir jaf il-verità ta' l-affarijiet kollha?"
Din id-domanda aħħar hija essenzjali. Jekk il-Ktieb ta 'Mormon enseigne inti xejn, ħalliha jgħallmu li inti tista' tistaqsi Alla u hu se manifest l-verità permezz tal-Ispirtu s-Santu.
Inti diġà għandhom xhieda ta 'dan, peress li inti qal Huwa ma jagħmel manifest lilek. Jekk jogħġbok aqra wkoll artiklu li tirrigwarda dan is-suġġett imsejħa " Ye jirċievu ebda Xhud Sa ... "
Brandon,
I ser tagħmel ħilitha biex iwieġeb il-mistoqsija tiegħek dwar "kif nistgħu nirrikonċiljaw" li Iskrittura fi 2 Pietru.
Inti ikkwotat Pietru: "Skond kif qawwa divina tiegħu hath mogħtija unto us affarijiet kollha li jappartjenu unto ħajja u godliness," u mbagħad enfasizzat li Peter kiteb li sew qabel l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon kien tradott. Your argument-korrett jekk me jien falsch hija li l-passaġġ ifisser li dak kollu li ġrat wara dikjarazzjoni Pietru huwa b'xi mod inqas neċessarju?
I ma jkollhomx biex infakkarkom li Peter kiteb ukoll li qabel l-Testment il-Ġdid kien miżjud il-Bibbja, jew kienu saħansitra ġew kompletament bil-miktub. Għall-inqas, linja ta 'ħsieb tiegħek għandu jwasslek biex tikkonkludi li l-epistles ta' John, l-Evanġelju ta 'John, il-Ktieb ta' Rivelazzjoni, u forsi Jude u 2 Timotju huma kollha meħtieġa.
Aħna nemmnu li Alla ta l-tfal tiegħu kollha affarijiet li jappartjenu unto ħajja u godliness, kemm jekk kienu dawn li ġejjin Lhud Mosè fid-deżert, it-tfal ta 'Iżrael fil-ħin ta' Elijah jew Ezra, jew il-persuni fil-ħin ta 'Pietru u l- appostli. Il-atonement ta 'Ġesù Kristu hija infinita, u ebda wieħed huwa damned biss minħabba li ma jkollhiex biżżejjed tal-Bibbja. Imma meta Iskrittura ġodda daħal raba għal dawk in-nies, huma aċċettati bl-armi miftuħa. Għaliex? Sempliċement minħabba li kienu l-kliem ta 'Alla, u meta Alla titkellem, inti tisma.
Inti tgħid li jekk inti kienu jafu l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon fih il-kliem ta' Alla, inti xorta ma tkunx partikolarment interessati fil-qari tagħhom, għax Alla tak biżżejjed?
Dave u Thaddeus - grazzi għall-kummenti tiegħek.
Hawn il-punt. If God speaks today, I will listen. I know Him because He revealed Himself. And I love Him. I am indwelt with His Holy Spirit who leads me into the truth. This is not arrogance. Its faith. But everything I 'hear' that claims to be the 'word of God' I test against the Bible, because it is sufficient.
The Book of Mormon contradicts what the entire Bible teaches about who God is and what He does. The gospel is that we are saved by grace through faith and by nothing that we do except place our faith in Christ alone. Not our behavior. Not our efforts. Not our works. Not our church.
That's grace. We don't deserve it. That's what makes it grace. God's tells us as He told Paul that His grace is sufficient for us. His grace is all that is needed. Not grace plus obeying a set of rules – no matter how good those rules are.
Dallin H. Oaks says,
“We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).”
If the grace of Christ is only sufficient for you after you have denied yourself ALL ungodliness, then my question is – have you? Have you denied yourself all ungodliness? If not, then his grace is NOT sufficient for you (according to the Book of Mormon). If you are only saved by grace AFTER ALL you can do, then the question is – have you done all you can? Even in light of 1 Cor 10:13? If doing all you can means “keeping the commandments” does he mean ALL the commandments?
That was a question my friend Chris, who posted on my blog, brought up.
To answer your question – I am satisfied with the Bible because God tells me, though the Bible, that the Bible is enough. It's not about my being satisfied but about God telling us that what He had given us in the Bible was enough – especially when that new 'revelation' is contrary to what had already been taught. And God knew the Bible would contain what it contains when He inspired Peter. If someone came to you and asked you to read the Koran or pick your religious book, and pray and ask if it was correct, would you do it?
Here's a challenge for both of you: Set the Book of Mormon down for a month and only study the Bible. You believe the Bible is Scripture so it should not be a stretch for you. We're told that the Bible is living and active, able to divide the deepest things within us. Ask God to teach you if there is any discrepancy between the Bible and the Book of Mormon and see what He does. Ask Him to teach you, to reveal to you the truth, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
One last thing. Thaddeus said, “If the Book of Mormon teaches you nothing else, let it teach you that you can ask God and he will manifest the truth through the Holy Ghost.”
The Bible already tells me that. I don't need the Book of Mormon to teach me 'truth' if that 'truth' contradicts what the One True God already taught me in the Bible.
Brandon,
Regardless of whether you believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God (which is the real issue here, I think), I am at least glad that you are at the point where you can say, “If God speaks today, I will listen.” Bravo.
I've actually been taking your challenge for a while now. Though I try to draw from all scripture when writing these posts and making lessons and things, my personal study has been almost exclusively in the Old Testament lately. I have to say: I have always found them to be just as much in harmony as the bible is with itself. I know you disagree, but then you and I clearly have different interpretations of the same passages. (Also, wouldn't any glaring inconsistencies between the Book of Mormon and the Bible be more apparent when reading both anyway?)
As for grace and works: I think that the Evangelical Christian world largely misunderstands what we believe. Let's get this straight: there is nothing we can do to “deserve” our salvation. No true Christians believe they can work their way to heaven, and Mormons are no exception.
You've likely been reading up on what we believe by people who are not us. If you really want to know what we believe about grace, I would highly recommend the following:
Megan's article, from our own site (and the excellent articles linked on that site)
This speech , given at BYU by Dr. Stephen Robinson
This article
This article
I'm probably overlooking some good ones. Thaddeus, any other recommendations?
Dave,
Thanks again for your comments.
“…my personal study has been almost exclusively in the Old Testament lately.I have to say: I have always found them to be just as much in harmony as the bible is with itself. I know you disagree, but then you and I clearly have different interpretations of the same passages. (Also, wouldn't any glaring inconsistencies between the Book of Mormon and the Bible be more apparent when reading both anyway?)”
You are dead on in that we interpret passages differently.
And yes, reading both to look for inconsistencies is what I assumed you would do. I meant more to read the Bible and see inconsistencies from what you already knew of the Book of Mormon. I wasn't clear there. The real issue is that of eisegesis. (as opposed to exegesis) That is when someone reads a meaning into the text as opposed to getting your meaning from the text. It is very easy to approach the Bible with a set of beliefs, and then when reading it, find support there for your particular beliefs. Look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe in the Bible, but they come to vastly different conclusions than either of us. That is because they read the Bible to find support for their beliefs. You can make the Bible support anything you want by doing that. I was hoping that by reading the Bible alone, you might see it for what it is, instead of through Mormon lenses. Basically, I know several Mormons who have read through the Bible (NT, too) and when they read the Bible for itself, began to have serious questions regarding the major tenants of the Mormon faith. I hope that makes sense.
“Let's get this straight: there is nothing we can do to “deserve” our salvation. No true Christians believe they can work their way to heaven, and Mormons are no exception.
You've likely been reading up on what we believe by people who are not us.”
I got that quote from here by Dallin Oaks: http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-26-23,00.html
The context of that quote follows:
“Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints who give this answer of denying the grace of God through claiming they can earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi taught, “For we labor diligently . . . to persuade our children . . . to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32)”
He said, “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” After all we can DO? But the Bible teaches in Ephesians 2, ” 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
He is indeed a Mormon and if you don't believe what he taught, I'm not sure what to say.
How do you reconcile that difference there? How do you interpret away that difference between the Book of Mormon and the Bible?
I truly am curious about that – not just in some academic or debate sense. I have a lot of other questions too, but maybe I have overextended my visit on this particular post.
Brandon,
There are two kinds of works or deeds. Faithful works, and dead works.
Faithful works are things that Christians do because of their faith in Jesus Christ. As James said, “Shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works” ( James 2:18 ). Heavenly Father still requires us to repent, get baptized, read the scriptures, pray, etc. But we do these things because we have faith in Jesus Christ. We don't believe obedience saves us in and of itself, but earnest effort to be obedient to God is finished by the grace of Christ.
Dead works are not associated with Christ at all. It's the same reason Cain's sacrifice was unacceptable. He was going through the motions of sacrifice without any thought of a Savior. Same with the Pharisees. It's when we think our good deeds have power to erase our sins that we are in danger of hellfire.
We do believe we must show ourselves faithful to Christ through our actions, and not merely in our words and thoughts. Jesus taught, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” ( Matthew 7:21 ). The after all we can do phrase is talking about faithful works.
If you are interested in discussing this any further, please read the articles we've already recommended first. It will help you see where we are coming from.
Dear Brandon, I have been reading this back and forth between you, Thad and Dave and I think that it is a great discussion. It is a nice thing to to see someone who is dedicated to their beliefs, thank you.
I want to ask three questions, why do you believe that the Bible, in and of itself, is sufficient? What do you mean by it being sufficient? Also, why can't God give us additional scripture, or call prophets today just as he always has?
Brandon,
First, I think you need to give people more credit. You can do that without agreeing with them. Everyone interprets the Bible through the lens of what they believe (more than that, everyone interprets their whole life experience through the lens of what they believe).
When you read Matthew 25, where the difference between the sheep and the goats is what they have done unto their fellow men, doubtless you interpret that scripture to mean something other than “works are important to your salvation.” When you read James' “faith without works is dead, being alone,” you may argue that James' words apply only to the Jews, or something like that. You may argue that when Paul speaks of needing to confess the name of Christ and have faith, that those actions of yours don't limit free grace. All written word will be interpreted; there's no getting around it unless the author himself explains what he meant.
At any rate, again, your questions are much better explained by those articles I linked, particularly the last two. Thanks for coming on!
Also enjoying the dialog.
These are quotes from one of the articles that you recommended:
“I become one with Christ, and as partners we work together for my salvation and my exaltation. [I don't believe this]. My liabilities and his assets flow into each other. I do all that I can do, and he does what I cannot yet do. The two of us together are perfect.”
“I'll tell you what. You give me everything you've got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Well, she's never been stupid. She gave me a hug and a kiss. She gave me the sixty-one cents…. I drove along slowly beside her it occurred to me that this was a parable for the Atonement of Christ. [I don't believe this either]
“There is good news and bad news here. The bad news is that he still requires our best effort. [requires it for what?] We must try, we must work–we must do all that we can. But the good news is that having done all we can, it is enough–for now.”
Based on these quotations from the article that you recommended, I have the following questions:
1. What if I don't do ALL I can. If I only do just a little effort, can I be saved? Is the grace of Christ sufficient for me if I don't do my “best effort?”
2. Have you done all you can? Have you really put forth your best effort? There is nothing else that you could do that you aren't doing? If not, then is Christ's work sufficient for you? How do you know?
I would like to explain our thoughts on this depending on what your responses are to the above questions. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to address these issues. What I view as serious problems, you view as sound doctrine, so to me, it is important that we understand each other.
Looking forward to your reply.
bfrancisco – I want to address your questions: Let me first get this comment out and a response to it. I don't want add too much to this discussion, but I want to let you know what I believe.
Dear Brandon, these are all good questions. I am not going to even try to supplant Dave or Thaddeus in this conversation, but these are all questions that we deal with too. When is enough enough, am I doing all that I can, etc? As I have read over your posts a few times I see that you are really thinking and trying to understand what we believe and we all appreciate that, you are great!
I would like to add my two cents for what it is worth. When we enter the waters of baptism we are making a covenant with God to serve him and keep his and his Son's commandments. As with any covenant there are promises on both sides. It is understood that we will never be able to do everything perfectly, but that does not exempt us from trying to do our best. As we move from grace to grace in our understanding our abilities to keep commandments increases. At each point along the way, if we are making a diligent effort then we are perfect in Christ, that is what you quoted from Moroni 10:32-33.
Allura kif nistgħu nafu jekk dak li qed nagħmlu huwa biżżejjed? Naħseb li huwa pjuttost faċli attwalment. Meta I jistabbilixxu bil-lejl I jieħdu inventarju tal-ġurnata. Nistaqsi lili nnifsi hemm xi ħaġa li għamilt illum li ma kienx dak li Ġesù jkollhom jsir? Jekk ikun hemm niġi isfel fuq irkopptejn tiegħi dritt u allura jitlob maħfra ta 'Alla, li maħfra hija possibbli minħabba atonement Ibnu fid f'ismi u I wegħda li jagħmel aħjar għada. Imbagħad mmur knisja nhar il-Ħadd u ġġedded pattijiet tiegħi ma 'Alla li għamilt fl-ilmijiet tal-magħmudija mill parteċipazzjoni tagħhom f'kawża ta' l-sagrament. I wegħda li jiena lest li jieħu fuq ruħi l-isem ta 'Kristu (ikun dixxiplu tiegħu) u ftakar dejjem lilu u jżomm il-kmandamenti tiegħu li huwa tani. Bi tpattija għal dan, jiena wiegħed li nista 'dejjem ikollhom l-Ispirtu s-Santu miegħi. Li denja li jkollhom l-Ispirtu s-Santu miegħi fil-ħinijiet kollha huwa sinjal ta 'Alla lili li jiena perfetta fi Kristu. Ikolli jagħmlu żbalji mill-ġdid? Sure, iżda I malajr jindem u kull ġimgħa jieħdu l-sagrament. Għalhekk essenzjalment fil-ħinijiet kollha, I jistgħu jitnaddfu minħabba l-grazzja ta 'Alla, mhux minħabba xogħlijiet tiegħi, imma I am tagħti l-aħjar tiegħi bl-għajnuna ta' Kristu. Għalhekk, l-aħħar tiegħi tal-patt huwa milqugħ u bil-grazzja ta 'Alla, li hija magħmula disponibbli permezz Ibnu, jiena nadif u "perfetta" quddiem Alla. Mhux għax jien perfetta mill-xogħlijiet tiegħi, imma għaliex jiena yoked lil Ġesù Kristu u hu jagħmel me perfetta.
Grazzi, bfransico, għall-qsim ħsibijiet tiegħek.
Oh, liema piż inti tbati. Qari li sempliċiment tagħmel hekk me imdejjaq, minħabba li l-verità hija li inti qatt se
ikunu jistgħu jagħmlu KOLLHA li tista 'tagħmel. Qatt. Ikollok dejjem (din in-naħa tal-ġenna) dnub fuq l-iskop, jagħmlu għażliet foolish, il Lust fil-qalb tiegħek, covet, wander mill tjieba. Inti se tagħmel dawk l-affarijiet (bħal I se tagħmel dawk l-affarijiet), għaliex essenzjalment inti ma tipprova iebes biżżejjed. Jista 'jkollok jsir aktar fl-isforzi tiegħek. Jista 'jkollok talab aktar, aqra kotba tiegħek aktar, b'mod aktar sagrifikati. Jekk inti seta 'jsir aktar, ppruvatx b'mod aktar qawwi, allura skond il-Ktieb ta' Mormon, il-grazzja ta 'Kristu mhux biżżejjed.
Inti intqal hawn fuq: "Bħal kull patt hemm wegħdiet taż-żewġ naħat." Dan huwa parti mill-problema. Dan mhux dejjem veru. Nistgħu nħarsu lejn il-Patt Abrahamic fil-Ġenesi 12:1-3. Din hija patt bejn il-Mulej u Abraham (u decedents tiegħu) Ma kienx patt kondizzjonali. Hija ma jimpurtax f'liema Abraham ma, Alla tissodisfa l-patt. Il-patt Davidic fi 2 Samuel 7:12-16 (il-Messija mwieghed) kien ukoll patt mhux kondizzjonali. Alla jissodisfax (u ma jissodisfaw) wegħda tiegħu irrispettivament mill-ubbidjenza / xogħlijiet ta 'l-Israelites. Issa, ma jsibux me wrong, hemm patti kondizzjonali stabbiliti fil-Bibbja, imma Alla tagħmilha ċara fil-ħin tal-patt dak li huwa meħtieġ. Il-patt finali huwa l-patt tal-grazzja, u li hija l-wegħda bla kundizzjoni ta 'Alla lil dawk li jemmnu.
Inti ukoll qal li "Meta I jistabbilixxu bil-lejl I jieħdu inventarju tal-ġurnata. Nistaqsi lili nnifsi hemm xi ħaġa li għamilt illum li ma kienx dak li Ġesù jkollhom jsir? Jekk ikun hemm niġi isfel fuq irkopptejn tiegħi dritt u allura jitlob maħfra ta 'Alla, li maħfra hija possibbli minħabba atonement Ibnu fid f'ismi u I wegħda li jagħmel aħjar għada. "(Inti dejjem jagħmel aħjar għada ... I medja hija li 1 wegħda xieraq?) Bħala Nisrani, I xewqa li jekk jogħġbok Salvatur tiegħi. I xewqa li jobdu lilu f'dak kollu li nagħmel. Id-differenza bejn il-Bibbja u l-Ktieb ta 'Mormon, huwa li l-Bibbja tgħallem li I ewwel għandhom ikunu mibdula permezz tal-ħidma ta' Kristu (li aħna nemmnu hu Alla etern, mhux maħluqa ... mhux bħalna) sabiex ikollhom kull tama tal-ħajja ġustament. Imbagħad, I live ġustament bħala tweġiba għall-grazzja stajt ġiet mogħtija, mhux bħala kondizzjoni ta 'dan. Alla MHUX se tneħħi Ispirtu Tiegħu minn jekk inkun screw up. Anke jekk jien screw up royally, jekk Hu għamel, inkun invitat, b / c għandi l-ebda poter myself tagħmel tajjeb. Meta I screw up, jew dnub (li nagħmel kull darba naħseb ħsieb ħażin, jiġġudika l-qalba ta 'ieħor, Lust, nikseb rrabjata ma' tfal tiegħi, att paċenzja fuq l-awtostrada, biex insemmu biss ftit) huwa l-Ispirtu FL me li jwassalni għall-indiema. L-Ispirtu s-Santu fil-ħajja tiegħi huwa s-siġill li jiggarantixxi wirt tiegħi. Ma jkunx garanzija jekk jista 'jiġi annullat minħabba nuqqas tiegħi ta' tipprova jew dnub tiegħi.
Dan li ġej huwa aside, u I verament ma rridu nġibu f'dibattitu dwar dan kif għandna ħafna biex jiddiskutu mal-suġġett in kwistjoni. Aħna nemmnu f'żewġ sentenzi kif deskritt fil-Bibbja. L-ewwel huwa l-Gran White tron Sentenza, meta l-ħrief jkunu sseparati mill-mogħoż. Dan huwa bażikament fejn Alla imħallfin dawk jew għall-salvazzjoni, jew damnation (Rivelazzjoni 20:11-14). It-tieni huwa s-sede Bema (1 Kor. 3:10-15). Din is-sentenza hija għal dawk li huma fidili, u dan huwa fejn ix-xogħlijiet huma ġġudikati bħala jew deheb / fidda, jew tiben / tiben. Wieħed minnhom se jiġi kkunsmat bin-nar, l-ieħor se jiġi ppreżentat lill Kristu bħala li joffru u premju se jingħata. A premju minn Kristu! Iżda indipendentement minn dak li jiġri għall-xogħlijiet, il-persuna li jiġi ġġudikat fuq il-Bema jiġi ffrankat minn damnation. Issa ... Ma nemminx (I jista 'jkun żbaljat) li inti temmen dan, u jien ma jinġieb sabiex jiddibatti din teoloġija, biss li jagħti raġun għal għaliex xogħlijiet tajba / materji ubbidjenza lill-non-Mormon. Ebda wieħed jgħidu li ubbidjenza ma jimpurtax. Hija importanti ħafna skond il-Bibbja (huwa kif nuru li aħna imħabba Ġesù - li l-importanti) huwa biss li peress li ma nistgħux inkunu perfetta (kif tahseb) u ma nistgħux lanqas nagħmlu l-almu tagħna biex tkun perfetta (mhux ċert jekk inti temmen) imbagħad xogħlijiet tagħna ma jgħoddux bħala squat għas-salvazzjoni tagħna. Mhux anke 61 pennies. Iżda dawn ma tgħoddx bħala dimostrazzjoni tal-fidi tagħna u l-imħabba.
I jipprovdu r-referenzi Bibbja mhux għal "Bibbja bash" iżda biss li joffru appoġġ Bibliċi għal dak I am qal. Naturalment inti mistieden biex tħares dawk versi up u jaqrahom fil-kuntest kif jiena ċert li inti se.
Grace b'definizzjoni tiegħek, mhuwiex grazzja li hija verament biżżejjed. Jekk kien, allura għaliex trid int "do kollha inti tista 'tagħmel?"
I xorta simili Thadeus u Dave twieġeb il-mistoqsijiet li jien maħluqa fl-aħħar kumment I magħmula kif ukoll, jekk ikollok ħin. U mistoqsija waħda finali: Kull lejl inti jindem, u kull Ħadd inti ġġedded vow tiegħek, wegħda tiegħek ... dak li jiġri għall-Mormon li jmut qabel l-lejla? Jew qabel Ħadd filgħodu, jew li kellhom ġimgħa verament busy u nesa li verament jindem fil-livelli kollha għal ftit jiem u mbagħad imut? (I am ma talbitx dan retoriku ... nixtieq li tkun taf dak li jemmnu dwar dan.)
Ieħor ta 'l-istati l-artikoli li "wieħed mill-duttrini foloz misjuba fil Christendom moderna hija l-kunċett li l-bniedem jistgħu jiksbu salvazzjoni (tifsira fil-renju ta' Alla) mill-grazzja waħdu u mingħajr ubbidjenza. Din id-duttrina ruħ-qerda għandha l-effett ovvju ta 'tnaqqis-determinazzjoni ta' individwu li jikkonformaw kollha tal-liġijiet u ordinanzi ta 'l-Evanġelju. "Din id-dikjarazzjoni ma setax jiġi aktar falza. Jien ma jobdux minħabba theddida ta 'infern. Nemmen fil-grazzja waħdu għas-salvazzjoni tiegħi. Li jagħmel me jridu iservi lilu l-aktar. Jafu d-dejn enormi li għandi l-ebda mezz ta 'ħlas, iżda Kristu mħallsa id-dejn (fl-intier tiegħu) jagħmel me jridu iservi lilu. Meta Insara ma xewqa biex iservu Mulej tagħhom bil-qalb kollha tagħhom, huwa aktar ta 'spiss minħabba li ma jifhmux l-greatness ta' piena tagħhom, u l-ħtieġa utter u kompleta tagħhom għall lilu. Irrid li jservu u jobdu Mulej Ġesù tiegħi għaliex I love lilu u għal ebda raġuni oħra. I am motivati mill-imħabba, mhux biża, għall casteth imħabba perfetta barra biża.
Grazzi għal darb'oħra għall din id-diskussjoni.
Jekk jogħġbok, jekk ikollok ħin, mur għall-blog tiegħi ( http://brandonandjenny.blogspot.com/2009/03/mormons-mormons-everywhere.html ) u aqra l-kumment minn Chris Itolbu. Huwa qrib il-qiegħ.
Għażiż Brandon,
Napprezza ħafna kif inti spjegaw tant tajjeb dak li inti temmen fir-rigward ta 'grazzja. I ma tħoss l-ebda piż għalkemm, I do dak li nagħmel għax jien imħabba ta 'Alla u Iben tiegħu, mhux minħabba biża' jew ħtija. Kif ħsibt dwar dan is-suġġett hekk bosta drabi u ppruvaw jispjegaw kif tispjega dawn il-kunċetti sempliċi, I biss ma nafx kif nista jispjegaw xi aħjar. Naħseb li kieku jservina tajjeb li tirrealizza li f'ħafna modi irridu li l-ħaġa għall-istess jagħmlu dak Kristu li ser jagħmlu u jgħixu ħajja ċċentrata fuq lilu.
Brandon, int qiegħed tagħmel tant tajjeb fid-dinja, jew pjuttost li Alla qed tagħmel tant tajjeb fid-dinja permezz tagħkom u I am so happy biex tara li inti imħabba ta 'Alla u jridu jservu lilu. Jiena ċert li inti qed jinbidlu ħajjiet u tgħin lill-oħrajn biex issib kuntentizza fi Kristu u li hija wunderbare. Huwa wisq ħażina li ma jkunx hemm aktar nies bħalek fid-dinja.
Brandon,
Naf li int maqbuda fuq dan "kollu li nistgħu nagħmlu" kliem. Forsi il-kliem fil 24:11 Alma jgħinuk:
"U issa behold, ħutna tiegħi, peress li ġie kollha li stajna nagħmlu (kif konna l-aktar mitlufa tal-umanità kollha) biex jindem ta 'l-dnubiet tagħna u l-qtil ħafna li għandna impenjati, u li tikseb Alla li jeħduhom bogħod mill-qlub tagħna, għall kien kollu nistgħu nagħmlu biex jindem biżżejjed quddiem Alla li kien se jieħu l bogħod tebgħa tagħna. "
Meta I taqra dan konverżazzjoni, jidher redikoli. Aħna nitkellmu kompletament passat xulxin. Inti rrilevat li aħna qatt ma tista 'tagħmel "Kulma nistgħu nagħmlu," fis-sens li hekk kif aħna rrinunzjati biss wieħed ftit opportunità li jagħmel xi ħaġa, u hekk kif aħna jitwettaq wieħed dnub ftit, oops! Aħna ma jsir kollu li nistgħu nagħmlu, u aħna ma jikkwalifikawx għas-salvazzjoni!
C'est redikoli, u l-ebda Mormon jemmen li. Dak li aħna qed nipprova ngħid, u dak Ben (jekk I tista 'tippreżumi) ġie nipprova ngħid huwa li biex jindem quddiem Alla, u biex ikunu jistgħu xhud lilu li se nkunu lesti li jżomm il-kmandamenti tiegħu u niftakruh ... li huwa kollu li nistgħu nagħmlu. Jidħol fis-relazzjonijiet patt ma 'Alla, jiġifieri dak kollu li nistgħu nagħmlu.
Issa, jekk jiġri li jkun Calvinist (tikteb bħal wieħed), u inti temmen fil-grazzja irreżistibbli, allura iva, aħna ma jaqblux. Aħna naħsbu li inti fil-fatt għandek tagħmel xi ħaġa li jaċċetta l-grazzja ta 'Alla. Fidi. Indiema. Magħmudija. Iżda hemm ħafna Arminians hemmhekk li wkoll ma jaqblux miegħek fuq dan.
I ħa klassi Testment il-Ġdid mill-bniedem li tkun tat dak diskors BYU. Huwa dejjem jilmentaw li n-nies interpreta ħażin "parabbola tal-biċikletta." Tiegħu Huma, bħalek, taħseb tal-ftit girl ħlas sittin ċenteżmu tagħha bħala simbolu ta 'magħna li jikkontribwixxu b'xi mod salvazzjoni tagħna stess. Iżda biss l-. Kuntrarju il-punt huwa li turi li aħna qatt ma jista 'possibbilment tama li qatt tagħmel anke l-iżgħar fairings fid-dejn tagħna għall-ġustizzja Li Ġesù iħallas 100%. (Dan huwa minn ħalq stess tar-raġel).
Issa, aħna nemmnu li l-salvazzjoni huwa dipendenti fuq taċċetta dan tagħna (li aħna jistgħu ma jaqblux). U l-"taċċetta" tinvolvi l-għemil u ż-żamma pattijiet. Iżda li affarijiet tajbin tkun parti ta 'aċċettazzjoni Ġesù Kristu huwa ferm cry milli ffrankata mill-merti tiegħek.
Jien personalment ħasbu li l-oġġetti tielet u raba I marbuta lilek ttrattati li speċjalment ukoll. Ridt taqra minnhom?
1. X'jigri jekk ma tagħmel KOLLHA nista '. Jekk I biss tagħmel ftit sforz, nista 'jiġi ffrankat? Huwa l-grazzja ta 'Kristu biżżejjed għalija jekk jien ma do tiegħi "l-aħjar sforz?"
Ġesù Kristu ta lilu nnifsu bħala sagrifiċċju biex tintemm l-tirannija ta 'kundanna taħt il-liġi impossibly stretta ta' Mosè. Aktar milli l-liġi tiġġudika kull tort tagħna, Ġesù sar imħallef ġdida tagħna u Huwa joffri ħniena mal-penitent (ara Alma 42 ). Penitenza ma jitkejjilx bil-lista tal-londri ta 'għażliet tajbin u ħżiena, iżda hija kundizzjoni tal-qalb wieħed.
Eżatt wara tlugħ tiegħu lejn is-sema f'Ġerusalemm, Ġesù waslet għall-Amerika u ddikjarat, "Ye għandhom joffru l unto me mhux aktar t-twaqqiegħ ta 'demm ... u ye għandhom joffru għall-sagrifiċċju unto me qalb miksura u spirtu contrite" ( 3 Nephi 9:19-20 ).
2. Have you jsir dak kollu li tista? Have you verament mressqa raba aħjar sforz tiegħek? M'hemm xejn li inti tista 'tagħmel li inti ma nagħmilx? Jekk le, allura huwa xogħol ta 'Kristu biżżejjed għalik? Kif tkun taf?
Bħal Dave qal, isn'ta kwistjoni ta 'kif isir dak kollu li nistgħu possibilment think ta mingħajr nieqsa iota. Dik biss Iqarribna lura lill-istrettezza tal-liġi. Hija kwistjoni ta 'kif isir dak li huwa disponibbli għalina. "Kull nistgħu nagħmlu" sabiex turi Kristu qalb miksura tagħna u l-ispirtu contrite għandha tidħol fis-pattijiet preskritti u l-unur fil-qlub tagħna, imħuħ, u atti.
Isforz huwa meħtieġ li jżomm penitenza tagħna. Aħna ma nemminx li ladarba aħna ewwel jħossu maħfra, aħna skużat għal kull dnub aħna se sussegwentement jikkommettu. Għalhekk, umiltà quddiem Alla u l-indiema huma essenzjali matul il-ħajja. L-iskop tal-ħajja huwa li ssir aktar u aktar bħal Kristu kull jum. Dan it-tip ta 'metamorfożi ma jiġri fi instant; hija tieħu ħajja jew aktar, u huwa għalhekk li aħna qed hawn.
Nistgħu jħossuhom żgurat li l-Mulej taċċetta sagrifiċċju tagħna ta 'qalb miksura u l-ispirtu contrite kif aħna nkomplu tħossok dnubietna tneħħew, u kif aħna huma ggwidati mill-Ispirtu s-Santu.
Brandon, peress li għandna opinjonijiet differenti ħafna rigward dan is-suġġett, kieku inti jgħidulna dak li jaħsbu l-iskop tal-ħajja huwa?
Hello gentleman (ma joffendu xi onorevoli hemmhekk - biss ma bbenefikawx kwalunkwe post hawn),
Ġew busy. Grazzi għall-tweġibiet tiegħek u l-onestà.
Nixtieq li iwieġeb il-mistoqsija bfrancisco imma li se tieħu aktar żmien minn Għandi dritt issa hekk jekk huwa alright I se tiddifferixxi li sakemm aktar tard fil-ġimgħa. Jekk jogħġbok skuża-dewmien ... Jien ma tiddevja!
Thaddeus - Inti staqsa, "Brandon, peress li aħna għandhom opinjonijiet differenti ħafna dwar dan is-suġġett, kieku inti tgħidilna dak li jemmnu li l-iskop tal-ħajja hu?"
I imħabba biex. Imma jien ser steal minn dak li xi wħud fuq oħra qalu. Nemmen li l-iskop tal-ħajja huwa li l-imħabba Alla tiegħi Mulej ma kollha tiegħi qalb, moħħ, ruħ u s-saħħa u għall-imħabba proxxmu tiegħi bl-istess mod. Dan ħsejjes familjari, I know. Morda wkoll steal mill-konfessjoni Westminster (li sempliċiment għaliex jiena naqbel mal-katekiżmu iqsar ma jagħmlu me Calvinist). Hija tippreċiża, "tmiem kap Man hija li glorify Alla, u biex igawdu lilu għal dejjem."
L-iskop tal-ħajja huwa li glorify Alla billi jkunu fi relazzjoni imħabba eterna ma 'Alla.
Dave - I ma taqra l-artikli u diġà kkwotat wieħed minnhom. Jien ma Calvinist. I istiva xi wħud mill-prinċipji ta 'Calvinism, iżda biss 3-4 ta' l-duttrini Tulip, u mhux limitat atonement. My wife is a Methodist and I enjoy Wesleyan theology, but I'm not going to get in a fist fight defending prevenient grace either.
I think one of the issues between Mormons and Christians is that we say the same words but do not always mean the same things.
For example, when we say, “God” we mean two different things.
What I mean:
There is only one God.
Is. 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,And there is no God besides Me. (Also see Deut. 6:4,Isaiah 43:11; 44:8; 45:5)
God is a Spirit without Flesh and Bones; not a man.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
What Mormon's (from my understanding and from the literature that I have read) mean:
There are more than one God. (Maybe only one God for this world, but God's father was a god, and it is also possible for you, in your theology, to someday be a god)
“And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)”
God is like us.
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
God is a man, or very like a man.
“”The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's,” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10).
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38)”
When I say, “Jesus”, we mean two different things.
What I mean:
Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He is God in flesh and man: God incarnate.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
(See also John 1:14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17).
Jesus was born of the virgin Mary.
Isaiah 7:14″Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. See also (Matt 1:22-25, Luke 1:26-35)
What Mormon's mean (Again, our understanding, and if this is wrong, it must be clarified):
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115)”
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 547)”
“Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)”
A large reason for the miscommunication is our failure to agree on terms and their meanings. I say this with all respect to you guys as people. I am not trying to be personally critical, just critical of the texts presented in light of what the Bible teaches and in light of what the Church has taught since Christ. I have an enormous amount of respect for the diligence and the strength of your faith. As your friend (and I do consider you a friend) I feel a burden to point out what seems to me to be enormous and critical errors. Especially since these errors may have eternal significance. Please know that this entire dialog has been in the spirit of love and respect.
Brandon,
You started with asking for archaeological proofs for the Book of Mormon. Then you moved to the necessity for post-biblical revelation. Then it was grace and works. Now the trinity and the nature of God.
I'm beginning to suspect that you don't really want to know what we believe, and that you're just going to go down the well-known laundry list of favorite evangelical arguments against Mormons, and try to show that our beliefs contradict the Bible. All you will do is show that our beliefs contradict your interpretation of the Bible. We can do the same. For instance, the trinity. Here is a list of 65 scriptures in the Bible that seem to indicate that the Father and Jesus are two separate beings. I have no doubt that you will interpret them differently.
This is not a forum for arguing about whether the Bible contradicts our beliefs. This is a place where people come to find out from us what we believe, not to tell us what they think we believe and why they think it's wrong. There are probably forums for that though. For our responses to those arguments, I recommend fairlds.org and farms.byu.edu. So we'll probably just refer you to those sites, where all your questions are already answered.
The quotes you posted about the nature of God and Jesus are, in fact, quotes from early church leaders (or Bruce R. McConkie). Aside from that, I don't know anything about them. They haven't much been elaborated on. How was Jesus fathered? I do not know. Where did God come from? I do not know. You'll find that these topics are not anything like mainstream in the LDS world. I've watched the LDS general conference for ten hours twice a year for my entire life, and I've never heard any of those topics mentioned, ever. That's not to say they're not true, it's just if you're looking for some clarification, there isn't much we can do for you. Perhaps God will see fit to clarify them.
With regards, however, to Jesus and Satan being brothers, that statement is a little misleading. I refer you to this article.
Dave,
I seem to have offended you. That was not my intention. I was truly trying to clarify terms but in the process I stepped on some toes. I apologize if I said something offensive.
With all respect, however, you make too many assumptions. You assumed I was a Calvinist (which I am not) and you assume I have some grand plan to debunk Mormon theology (which I do not). The progression of thoughts in your first paragraph stem from my assumption that this was a discussion and those thoughts flowed as I sought to discover what you guys really believe. You cannot dismiss me by squeezing me into a category.
I was answering Thadeus's questions regarding the point of life, and then I just wanted to clarify what I thought were assumptions you had made because we misunderstood one another's meanings of the same words.
The title of this website is “What Mormon's Believe”. Debate and discussion are meant to bring clarity, and though you answer many of my questions very well you get defensive and throw assumptions at me to dismiss what I am saying. I am sure I often do the same thing, though I hope to avoid that.
I have Mormon neighbors. We really love them. We're watching their poodle while they are out of town. I want to understand better what they believe and so I came here for some dialog and even debate in order to better understand Mormonism. We do indeed talk to them about what we believe, but surely you understand that most conversation is about kids and how much it rained and when are you coming over for another movie night. So we came here because Thaddeus had very graciously commented on my blog and directed me here for further questions. Yet when I sought clarity by asking what I thought were genuine questions, I am dismissed.
I'm not trying to be misleading. I'm trying to figure out how Mormons believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon can stand side-by-side as equal revelation from God and I did that by trying to get some agreement on terms.
If when I say “tree” you think of a coat tree or a parrot and I think of an Elm tree, then when I say, “Let's go look for trees in the forest” we will not be doing the same thing. I was attempting to bring clarity to our discussion by coming to an agreement on two very important things: Who is God and Who is Jesus.
It seems clear that we are indeed not talking about the same thing when we say those terms. If we cannot agree on those terms (the 'definition' so to speak of God), then our discussion may have come to an end. I hope not.
This discussion has been wonderful for me. I hope it at least of benefit to you.
Grace and peace to you, Dave.
Brandon,
You certainly haven't offended me, and I apologize for making assumptions about you being a Calvinist. I definitely know what it's like to have people assume things about what we believe, so I really should know better.
I have had a lot of that conversation with my Calvinist friends lately, who truly do believe that it is 100% grace that saves us. Being a Calvinist isn'ta bad thing either; when I said that I was just trying to point out that if you were a Calvinist, we definitely disagree on that point. And as my Calvinist friends have pointed out, anything less than irresistible grace admits that we ourselves are required to do something in order to be saved. So I was trying to point out that in the grace and works debate, the idea that God would require something of you before he saves you is not uncommon in Christianity. I apologize if that didn't come off right. And I'm happy to know that I was wrong when I said I suspected that you were just here to try to show us that our beliefs contradict the bible.
I understand what you mean about terminology. Words like “God”, “Jesus”, and “saved” are loaded with theological assumptions. I think, though, I disagree with your statement that “if we cannot agree on those terms, then our discussion may have come to an end.” I think it just boils down to understanding each other. To use your analogy, as long as I understand that when you say “tree,” you're talking about an Elm tree, I understand you completely. So we believed different things about God. As long as we both understand what we each respectively are picturing in our heads when we say things like “God” and “Jesus,” then we can have meaningful conversation without needing to agree.
I'm sorry that you feel “dismissed.” That was most definitely not my intention. On what questions do you feel dismissed?
I'm also glad that you feel this conversation has been a benefit to you. In what ways has it helped you?
Brandon,
For what it's worth, it did seem like you were just looking for the chance to one-up us in an argument, by your darting from topic to topic. Especially since we see these same tired arguments frequently from evangelical Christians who have no other object than declaring our doctrines false.
We are happy to entertain questions, but we'd prefer to do it with people who listen to our side and give our arguments full consideration.
Which is why I'm thrilled to learn you are willing to do that! We'd love to demonstrate how our theology is fully compatible with the Bible, as long as you recognize that you and we don't share the same interpretation of every verse.
Like Dave said, our beliefs don't contradict the Bible, but they may contradict your interpretation of it.
Groovy. Glad we can keep chatting. Dave, I felt dismissed on my stance on grace. But that's Ok. I know that wasn't your intention.
Well, we disagree on who God and Jesus are (at least I think that's what Dave was saying).
And our interpretation of the Bible is different. That seems clear since our conclusions are different. So…if we're both reading the same verses and we both think we're right, can both of us be right?
I only assume you guys think you are correct in your interpretation of the Bible. I sure believe I'm correct. It would be really silly for one of us to KNOW we were wrong and say we were right. But I'm almost certain neither of us is doing that.
we disagree on who God and Jesus are
I would hesitate to phrase it that way. When we talk about Jesus, we are talking about the same person, but our conceptions of Him are different. We believe different things about Jesus.
The reason I nitpick is because I've run into a few people who claim that “Mormons believe in a different Jesus,” but that leads naive listeners to think we worship some Jesus Jones from Connecticut or something.
The Jesus we believe in was born of Mary in Bethlehem. He walked on water in Galilee. He was crucified on Calvary by Roman soldiers. We believe everything that is written about Him in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. He has a LOT in common with the Jesus you believe in. So much in common, I think it's safe to assume we're talking about the same person.
We may disagree on some details of His exact nature, but we agree on who He is (in general terms). Please read an article called “ Jesus the Christ ” to see for yourself.
Sorry for the gap here. I just have not had the time.
I definitely agree that we're talking about the same guy, Jesus of Nazareth. But we do not believe the same things about Him or His nature. I say that instead of 'details of His exact nature' because I don't think the things we disagree on are not details at all, but come down to the very nature of God.
There is a wonderful book named Knowledge of the Holy by AW Tozer and I would recommend it to you guys to read. It's all about the attributes of God. In it, Tozer says,
“What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us. The history of mankind will probably show that no people has ever risen above its religion, and man's spiritual history will positively demonstrate that no religion has ever been greater than its idea of God.”
The book is about thinking rightly about God, not just thinking about Him. It's one of my favorite devotional books.
Sorry I never got into the sufficiency of Scripture. It's really a moot point given that we will not agree on one another's interpretation.
To that point, however. Do you believe there is ONE correct interpretation of Scripture?
Our ideas about God are different
Interesting to read some people here playing doctrinal ping pong. Strike one is dealing with people we don't know in person on the Internet. I think many people see any issue as entertainment. Any situation that does not require action, that does not present consequences and accountability, is by nature, a fantasy.
Is The Book of Mormon the word of God or not? I know it is. I've paid the price to know….reading, pondering, praying about it. I worked for two years solid to create a free site for anyone who wants to really understand the Book of Mormon…..plainBookofMormon.com.
It seems that online, we find more intellectuals who want to pretend they are humble and have faith in Christ, but in the end, will be found to be egg-heads who really wanted everything their way. To be a true Christian is to be humble and teachable…..willing to do anything to further the Lord's will. It's the least we can do, if we love Him. He did say, “my sheep hear my voice”. And another man said, “If we don't follow the voice of the Good Shepard, than whose sheep are we?” I like that line of reasoning. Satan is so clever, to entrap people with their own smug form of Christian living.
I hope we can all rise above the smugness, and just do the will of the Lord, expecting His grace to save us, “after all we can do” as John wrote.
Tim
Tim
I have prayed about whether the book of Mormon was true and God's answer to me was “No”. In addition to my prayers,
When the Book of Mormon has so many errors, inconsistencies and alterations that the only way to explain them away is to say “Just pray to see if it is true”, then you've got a real problem with what you believe. I implore all Mormons to examine what you believe critically, independent of the LDS church and your elders. You cannot go to your elders with the questions the outside world is asking. They will only tell you the same thing they've always told you. That's like asking Hulk Hogan if he belives WWF is real wrestling. OF COURSE he's going to tell you “yes” and tell you what you want to hear. He IS a wrestler.
Step outside of the Mormon bubble and examine what you believe critically. Read and learn about all the true information that the rest of the world has access to about Mormonism. Believe it or not, you can really get access to all the original Mormon documents and files and see what has changed between then and your present day materials. If the Mormon scriptures are as perfect & true as the LDS church boasts, why all the changes over the years? If you ask me, the problem is a false religion coupled with cultural relativism.
And don't give me the old “so as it is correctly translated” excuse. Mormons basically took what Josheph Smith had “translated” from the tablets at face value. Furthermore, “Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics” never existed! Talk about a “so as it is correctly translated” conundrum. And I venture to say that if both the first AND second tablets had broken, JS would have produced a third tablet……tada!
Regarding the comment “We may disagree on some details of His exact nature, but we agree on who He is (in general terms).”
The “some details” are PRETTY IMPORTANT details. Mormons basically trample the very essence of who Jesus is, based on the Holy Bible, and it's a slap in the face to Christians (yes…the “real true ultra super” Christians of the Holy Bible). …..(just poking a little fun at the latest “true Christian campaign headed up by the LDS church)
Jesus WAS NOT a brother of Satan.
Jesus IS a part of the Holy Trinity of Father-Son-Holy spirit as ONE GOD-HEAD, not three separate Gods.
GOD was, is, and always will be the same. God was NOT created from a man. The belief God came from a man basically disempowers God in blasphemy and renders Him incapable of all that He has actually done with Creation. Man cannot do what God can do. Man cannot become a God. When Mormons claim that they become Gods, they are making the same mistake Satan did.
Those are a couple of the “some details” that Mormons try to pass off as unimportant.
Mormons, I implore you to step outside your “comfort zone” and really take a look at what you believe from an impartial perspective. Take a look at all the questions and evidence available that proves Mormonism is NOT christianity and is not true . Don't hold on to something false just because you're worried what you're family will think or if your church will excommunicate you (that's some loving church). It's a tough thing to swallow your pride and humble yourselves into researching information that would prove what you believe to be wrong. Who wants to find out they've believed something false for so long? I know I wouldn't, but it would be worth it if my eternity depended on it, which it does! And so does yours!
the prolonged discussion with Brandon suggests that if God is really interested in using the scriptures to help the people understand the gospel, then more clarity is needed. Here we see a few articulate and educated individuals who can't seem to come to an agreement on what certain scriptures say or mean. Over 600 “Christian” churches have different interpretations as to what some of the key concepts of the scriptures mean. Has God just given mankind a big puzzle to figure out, which they apparently can't do, (In fact some groups have killed people over these disagreements)? Or is God interested enough in us lowly humans to provide some clarification through other scriptures and even some living prophets?
As for Terry, you sound pretty mad.?
“Over 600 “Christian” churches have different interpretations as to what some of the key concepts of the scriptures mean.”
While this is true, the interpretations of scriptures of the different “Christian” churches is still based on the same bible. As a non LDS christian, the use of the Book of Mormon by the LDS church is the part that is hard for me to reconcile.
In the end… I don't believe it matters. As long as a person accepts christ and recognizes that he is our saviour… I think he/she is in a good place.
I am a Somali young man,i live in Mogadishu,I need to know where to go after death,which religion is true? Here Islam is been used to kill people,please need advice and prayer.
I say all people who live in this world are 1 and they are brothers regardlss of colour or geographical
Abdi, you are very right. We are all brothers and sisters no matter where you live or what color of skin you have. I am glad you have found this website.
I will pray for you. You must also pray for help and to know what to do. We know that God is our Father and He loves us. He will help you find the true religion. Please read more about prayer here , and begin reading the Book of Mormon here . The Book of Mormon helps me every day to know what Heavenly Father wants me to do. I am sure it will also help you.
I wish the Church had a presence in Somalia, but right now there are no chapels or missionaries there. Abdi, if you want to keep learning about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, please keep posting comments. We'd love to hear more about you and what you are thinking about.
I'm so sorry to read this Abdi! You are right as Thaddeus said, we are all brothers/sisters in Christ, created by an almighty loving God. I have my opinions on the Muslim Religion as well as the Mormon Religion, but I will leave that alone because I am not here to scrutinize or criticize anyone. I do agree with Thaddeus also in saying that you should Pray to God about this matter and he will surely give you an answer but you must pray in faith. I disagree on reading the book or Mormon however, your first source should be the Holy Bible which is the word of God, inspired by God.
God bless you Abdi and may you continue your search for Truth!
Harmony April