Mormonova knjiga kršćana
po BretNefijsku ljudi Mormonove knjige koje naseljavaju Sjevernu i Južnu Ameriku između 600 BC i 400 AD je, na najviše bodova u povijesti, pravednika. To jest, oni su Kristova crkva osnovana među njima u kojoj su poučavali evanđelje Isusa Krista. Živjeli su po zakonu Mojsija i čuvaju zapovijedi koju im proroka Bogu. U vrijeme zloće, oni su ponizili od Gospodina kroz mača i gladi. U vremenima pravednosti, oni su sretni i dobili snagu da se zaštite od neprijatelja. To je u skladu s obećanjima od strane Gospodina. "I [Gospodin] Tko ima je rekao da: Ukoliko ćete se vrše moje zapovijedi ćete napredovati u zemlji, ali budući da ne budete čuvali moje zapovijedi ćete biti odsječeni od moje prisutnosti" ( 2 Nefi 01:20 ).
Bilo je mnogo proročanstva i Pisama da Nefijce imali i svi od njih je ukazao na Isusa Krista, koji još nije bio došao. Prorok imenom Nefi, koji je živio oko 600 godine prije Krista, napisao: "I mi govoriti o Kristu, radujemo se Kristu, mi propovijedamo Krista, mi prorokuj Krista, i mi pisati prema našim proročanstava, da naša djeca mogu znati što izvor mogu tražiti oproštenje svojih grijeha "( 2 Nefi 25:26 ). Oni su obličje naprijed prema Kristu mnogo na isti način na koji smo se osvrnuti na njegovu životu ovdje na zemlji, i veselimo se Njegov drugi dolazak. Ostali proroci poput Benjamina i Abinadi i Alma i mnogi drugi puk u vezi Krista, dajući svoja svjedočanstva, kao dobro. Svi su znali Krista i znao da će doći da otkupi svoj narod.
Od svih priča, lekcija i proročanstva u Mormonova knjiga, nitko se tako snažno niti tako velike važnosti kao i kad je Isus Krist sam posjetio ljude ovdje u američkom kontinentu. Samo pet godina prije njegova rođenja, prorok, poslan je u narodu zove Samuel. Njegova proročanstva su iznimno jednostavni i precizni.
I gle, on im reče: 'Evo, dajem vama znak, za pet godina više dolazi, i gle, onda Dolazi Sina Božjega da iskoristim sve one koji će povjerovati u njegovo ime. I gle, ovo ću dati vama za znak u trenutku njegova dolaska, jer, evo, bit će veliki svjetla na nebu, u tolikoj mjeri da u noći prije nego što dođe neće biti tama, dotle da će se pojaviti k Čovjek kao da je dan. Dakle, tu će biti jedan dan i noć i dan ... i on mora biti noć prije nego što se rađa. I gle, ondje će biti nova zvijezda pojaviti, tako nešto kao što ste nikada nije gledao. I gle, to nije sve, bit će mnoga znamenja i čudesa na nebu. Helaman 14:2-6
Proročanstva i znakovi Kristove smrti su također dobili.
Ali evo, kao što sam reče da u vezi još jedan znak, znak njegove smrti, gle ... Sunce će se potamni ... i mjesec i zvijezde, i ne smije biti svjetlo na lice ove zemlje, pa čak i iz Vrijeme da će pretrpjeti smrt ... na vrijeme da će uskrsnuti od mrtvih. Da, u to vrijeme da će položiti duh bit će gromove i munje za prostor mnogo sati, a zemlja će se tresti i drhtati ... a bit će mnoga mjesta koja se sada nazivaju doline koji će postati planine ... I mnoge ceste će se razbiti i mnogi gradovi će postati pusta. I mnogi grobovi će se otvoriti ... i mnogi sveci će se pojaviti do mnogih. Helaman 14:20-25
Samuel je također objasnio poslanje Kristovo na zemlji i važnost Njegova dolaska. Većina ljudi ne vjeruje Samuel riječi, ali to ih nije spriječilo dolazak proći. Noć ostao lit pet godina kasnije i nova zvijezda je vidio. Trideset i tri godine nakon toga, potresi i oluje izravnati gradove i tama jača za tri dana. Da bi preživjeli, međutim, sam Krist pojavio.
Poglavlja 11 do 28 od 3 Nefi sadrže Njegove riječi i djela među ljudima. On je dopustio da dođe k njemu da se iz prve ruke svjedoči o stvarnosti svoga uskrsnuća. On je izabrao 12 ljudi da budu učitelji i vođe, dajući im ovlasti i zapovijedi koje se odnose na krštenje. Zatim je dao svim ljudima riječi koje je dao Židovima na Propovijedi na gori (vidi Mt 5 i 3 Nefi 12 ).
Tijekom sljedećih nekoliko dana, on je nastavio poučavati im Pisma, liječiti svoje bolesne , dati im sakrament , i moliti s njima. Želim potaknuti sve da čitate ove riječi, jer su takvi primjeri dirati Kristove ljubavi za njegov narod. Učinak da će ovaj posjet imala na ljude nije zaboravio. Za stotine godina, ljudi su bili marljivi u sljedećim riječi koje je Isus dao za njih i nije bilo do su se odvratili od tih riječi da li uspjeti, baš kao i mnogo puta predvidjeti unaprijed.
Mormonova knjiga je izvanredan knjiga i sadrži mnoge lekcije koje su primjenjive u našim životima. To također pokazuje uzvišenu istinu da je Isus Krist , i da je on sam obaviješten svojim narodom antičkih ovdje. Znali Bio je njihov Spasitelj od smrti i grijeha i oni slušali njegove riječi i bili su blagoslovljeni. Isto vrijedi i za nas danas. Svojim svjedočenjem i svjedočanstva Duha Svetoga, možemo znati te iste istine.
Hvala za reći tako jednostavno i dobro kako je Krist-centric Mormonova knjiga je.
Želio bih da se govori da sve mormona i svi koji su s obzirom na moromonism kako bi provjerili da je razumijevanje. Gospodin je Bog samo Bog ... razdoblje. Postoji samo jedan raj, a samo jedan način da se tamo, a to je spasenje kroz Isusa Krista. Morate ga postaviti u svoje srce iu svoj život da se vaš Spasitelj. Tek nakon što ga prihvati ćete shvatiti plan koji on ima za svoj život. Nije bitno kojoj vjeri ste. Baptist, Južna Krstitelj, pentekostna, prezbiterijanac, itd. Boga ne brine o religiji, on brine o svom srcu, a vi znate On zna tvoje srce. Nema ide u pakao i uzimajući vaše grijehe očisti i dopušteno u nebo. Ne morate vjerovati u bilo kojem učenju, osim učenja Gospodina. Volim vas sve i molim da Gospodin ispunja ćete Njegov Duh Sveti i vas približava njemu! Da bi upoznali ga i osobni odnos On čeka da se s vama!
Pa hvala na mišljenju, Maranda. Izgleda da ste čuli naša uvjerenja od drugih ljudi, osim mormona. Zašto ne guranje oko malo na mjestu i vidjeti što mi stvarno vjerujete?
Hej Thaddeus - to je Brandon. Nadam planinarenje ide dobro.
Imam nekoliko pitanja u vezi Nefijce i arheologije. Ja ne pokušavam samo biti izbirljivi ili točka iz pogrešaka, ali kako je to velika grupa ljudi? Gdje su oni bili zemljopisno u Americi? Su pronašli evidenciju o njima?
Jedan od Nefijce pokopan zlatnu knjigu koja Smith otkrila ... gdje je to bilo? Možda imam krivi priču tamo.
U svakom slučaju ... hvala za vaše vrijeme ... samo neka pitanja koja sam imao.
Brandon, dobro čuti od vas! Nisam stvarno bio planinarenje mnogo od bijesa dolini, ali s semestra samo o više, nadam se to promijeniti uskoro.
Hvala vam što traži tih važnih pitanja. Puno istraživanja je otišao u Knjizi mormon zemalja i iznenađujuće iznos potkrepljuje dokazima je okrenut prema gore, no većina arheologa i antropologa reći da smo tek zagrebli po površini.
Prevladava mišljenje među istraživačima je danas da je Mormonova knjiga je u Novi svijet pokriven vrlo ograničen zemljopisa od nekoliko stotina milja, i da Lehi obitelj vjerojatno integriran s kulturama već ovdje. U samo nekoliko generacija Lehi je brod pun možda nekoliko desetaka ljudi naglo na dvije velike civilizacije: Nefijce i Lamanites. Kasnije u knjizi ljudi se broje u milijunima.
Tu je još uvijek neki spor o tome gdje se točno Nefijce i Lamanites živio, ali raste konsenzus među znanstvenicima ga stavlja u Srednja Amerika (južni Meksiko i Gvatemala). Zemljišne utakmice koje su opisane u Mormonova knjiga, i civilizacije numeriranja u milijunima nastao tamo. Nefijsku civilizacija obično se podudaraju s krajem Preclassic Maje, a Jaredites (ranije Mormonova knjiga skupini) je identificiran s Olmecs.
Brandon, budući da su u Gvatemali, vi ste u zavidnom položaju gleda u neki od tih zahtjeva sebe. Volio bih nastaviti ovu temu razgovarati s vama.
Vjeruje se da Moroni, sin Mormon (čovjek koji je sastavljen uglavnom zlatne ploče) su ploče na putovanje iz Srednje Amerike do obale u New Yorku, gdje ih je pokopan u brdu za Josepha Smitha pronaći kasnije. Naravno, kao serendipitous niz događaja samo bi se moglo pripisati kao čudo od Boga, ali tako je knjige postojanje.
Moroni je znao da je uzimanje knjige u nominalnoj vrijednosti će biti teško za neke ljude. U svom posljednjem poglavlju, on predlaže da idemo na Ultimate i konačni autoritet i zamolite ga da li je sve točno:
"Evo, ja bih vas potičem da kada ćete pročitati ove stvari, ako je to mudrost u Boga, da biste ih trebali pročitati, da bi se sjetiti kako ste milosrdni Gospodin bijaše sinovima muškaraca, od stvaranja Adama i prema dolje do vremena koje ćete dobiti ove stvari, i razmisli u vašim srcima.
"A kad ćete dobiti ove stvari, ja bih vas potičem da i vi bi pitati Boga, Vječnoga Oca, u ime Krista, ako su te stvari nije istina, a ako zaištete s iskrenom srcu, sa stvarnom namjerom, ima vjeru u Kristu, on će pokazati istinu o tome k vama, snagom Duha Svetoga.
"I po snazi Duha Svetoga znate istinu svih stvari." Moroni 10:3-5
Znam Mormonova knjiga je točno, jer moj Nebeski Otac je odgovorio na moju molitvu. Arheologija je služio za sigurnosno kopiranje i ojačati taj izvorni iskaz, ali je teško konačni autoritet kada je u pitanju vjerske istine. Hoćete li i čine ga obzira na molitve?
Hej Thaddeus -
Hvala za rješavanje tih pitanja. Ja sam u Gvatemali ali ono što sam našao istraživanje Maya povijest ne bi bilo ohrabrujuće za vas. Ali vi odgajani drugu točku koja Htio bih razgovarati. Bez obzira što arheologija uspjela iskopati (doslovno) neće utjecati na vjerovanje u istinitost Mormonove knjige tako da ne vidim nikakvu potrebu da se o tome razgovarati dalje.
Imam hard vrijeme pomiri slijedeće stihove iz 2. Petrova poglavlje 1:
"1Simon Petar, sluga i apostol Isusa Krista, onima koji su dobiveni kao dragocjeno vjere s nama kroz pravednost Boga i Spasitelja našega Isusa Krista:
2Grace i mir se multiplicirati vama po spoznaji Boga i Isusa Gospodina našega 3According kao svoje božanske moći dade nam sve stvari koje se odnose k životu i pobožnosti, po spoznaji njega da on nas zove da slave i kreposti : 4Whereby se dade nam prelaze velike i dragocjenim, najvećim obećanjima: da ste to mogli biti zajedničari božanske naravi, nakon što je pobjegao iz pokvarenosti koja je u svijetu kroz požude "
Peter je napisao da je dugo vremena prije nego Mormonove knjige je preveden. I Bog kaže da je kroz Petra u Bibliji imamo "Prema kao svoje božanske moći dade nam sve stvari koje se odnose k životu i vjernosti."
On kaže da smo dobili "sve stvari koje se odnose na život i vjernosti". On kaže da smo tada dobili su one stvari ", po spoznaji njega da on nas zove da slave i kreposti: 4Whereby se dade nam prelaze velike i dragocjenim, najvećim obećanjima: da ste to mogli biti zajedničari božanske naravi, nakon što je pobjegao korupcije koja je u svijetu kroz požude "
Zašto se trebam Mormonovu knjigu da žive čestiti, veličanstvenih život? Ovaj odlomak mi govori da sam dobila "prelazili velike i dragocjena obećanja", i "sve stvari koje se odnose na život i vjernosti" i da od tih stvari koje sam mogla biti učesnik u božanskoj prirodi ", nakon što je pobjegao iz korupcije koja je u svijetu kroz požude ".
Zašto trebam nešto drugo? Naravno postoje i druge dobre, istinite stvari koje nisu u Bibliji, ali ovaj stih u kontekstu mi govori da je Isus, po svojoj vjeri u Njega, mi je dao sve što je potrebno za pobožnog, sveta, kreposnog i prekrasan život slobodan od korupcije koja je u svijetu. Zašto bi Bog vratiti i dodati nešto kasnije, kada je već rekao da ono što je On dao nam dovoljno?
Ja ću priznati, molila sam ovo: "Ja bih vas potičem da i vi bi pitati Boga, Vječnoga Oca, u ime Krista, ako su te stvari nije istina, a ako zaištete s iskrenom srcu, sa stvarnom namjerom , nakon što je vjeru u Kristu, on će pokazati istinu o tome k vama, snagom Duha Ghost.And snagom Duha Svetoga znate istinu svih stvari. "
Pitao sam da je "sa iskrenim srcem, sa stvarnom namjerom, da vjeru u Krista". I Bog me je dovelo do stiha u 2. Petrova 1 i osjećao sam se vrlo jak gori u grudima da se stvari u Moroni i ostatak knjige Mormonova doista nije istina i da je Bog Biblije je drugačiji od boga Knjige mormon.
Molio sam to, Thaddeus, a Bog se očituje k meni da je ono što mislite da je istina je zapravo lažna, a ne od Boga.
Kako pomiriti te stvari?
Brandon, ako je odgovor Bog vam je dao, onda morate slijediti ga.
Imam razloga za sumnju da nije bio njegov odgovor, ali to je stvar između vas i Boga. Vjerujem da kršćanin kao zrele kao što možete reći razlika između Duha Svetoga i svojim unaprijed stvorenim želje.
Nudim nekoliko pitanja pri razmišljanju o, za javnost sa svojim Nebeskim Ocem:
1 - Koliko Mormonove knjige sam pročitao?
2 - Da li sam dati ga pošteno suđenje, ili je to odbio prije nego što sam to pokupila?
3 - Je li to sa stvarnom namjerom Ako Bog mi je rekao da je istina, nije namjeravam ga usvojiti ili odbaciti bih to ovako ili onako?
4 - Ne vjerujem da je "snagom Duha Svetoga [I] može znati istinu svih stvari?"
To posljednje pitanje je ključ. Ako je Mormonova knjiga uči vas ništa drugo, neka to vas naučiti da možete tražiti od Boga i on će se manifestirati istinu kroz Duha Svetoga.
Vi već imate svjedočanstvo da, budući da je On učinio da se očituje na vas. Molimo također pročitajte članak koji se odnosi na ovu temu pod nazivom " Vi ne dobivaju svjedoka Do ... "
Brandon,
Ja ću nastojati odgovoriti na pitanje o "kako pomiriti" da je Sveto pismo u 2. Petrovoj.
Vi citirao Petar: "Prema kao svoje božanske moći dade nam sve stvari koje se odnose k životu i pobožnosti", a zatim je istaknuo da je Petar napisao da je i prije Mormonova knjiga je bila prevedena. Vaš me argument-ispraviti ako sam u krivu, da je prolaz znači da sve što je nastala nakon što je Petra izjava je nekako manje potrebno?
Ne moram da vas podsjetim da je Petar također je napisao da prije Novog zavjeta je dodao Bibliju, ili je čak u cijelosti napisana. Na samom kraju, vaša linija razmišljanja treba dovesti vas da zaključiti da su poslanice po Ivanu, Evanđelje po Ivanu, Knjiga Otkrivenja, i možda Jude i 2 Tim su sve nepotrebno.
Vjerujemo da je Bog dao svojoj djeci sve koji se odnose k životu i pobožnosti, bilo da su Hebreji sljedeće Mojsije u pustinji, Izraelci u vrijeme Ilije ili Ezra ili ljudi u vrijeme Petra i apostoli. Pomirenje Isusa Krista je beskonačan, a nitko nije osuđen isključivo na račun nemaju dovoljno Biblije. No kada novi spisi došao za one ljude, oni su ih prihvatili raširenih ruku. Zašto? Jednostavno zato što su riječi Božje, a kad Bog govori, možete slušati.
Jeste li rekavši da ako je znao Mormonova knjiga sadrži riječi Božje, još uvijek ne bi bilo osobito zainteresirani za čitanje njima, jer mi je Bog dao dovoljno?
Dave i Thaddeus - hvala za komentare.
Evo točka. Ako Bog govori danas, ja ću slušati. Poznajem ga, jer On se objavio. I ja ga volim. Ja sam živi s njegovom Duhu Svetom koji me vodi u istinu. To nije oholost. Njegova vjera. Ali sve sam čuti "da tvrdi da je 'riječ Božja' ja testa protiv Biblije, jer je dovoljno.
Mormonova knjiga u suprotnosti ono što cijela Biblija uči o tome tko je Bog i što on radi. Evanđelje je da smo spašeni milošću po vjeri i da ništa ne radimo, osim mjesta naše vjere u Krista. Nije naše ponašanje. Ne naši napori. Ne naša djela. Nije naša crkva.
To je milost. Mi to ne zaslužuju. To je ono što čini milost. Božja nam govori kako je rekao da Njegova milost Pavla je dovoljno za nas. Njegova milost je sve što je potrebno. Not grace plus obeying a set of rules – no matter how good those rules are.
Dallin H. Oaks says,
“We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).”
If the grace of Christ is only sufficient for you after you have denied yourself ALL ungodliness, then my question is – have you? Have you denied yourself all ungodliness? If not, then his grace is NOT sufficient for you (according to the Book of Mormon). If you are only saved by grace AFTER ALL you can do, then the question is – have you done all you can? Even in light of 1 Cor 10:13? If doing all you can means “keeping the commandments” does he mean ALL the commandments?
That was a question my friend Chris, who posted on my blog, brought up.
To answer your question – I am satisfied with the Bible because God tells me, though the Bible, that the Bible is enough. It's not about my being satisfied but about God telling us that what He had given us in the Bible was enough – especially when that new 'revelation' is contrary to what had already been taught. And God knew the Bible would contain what it contains when He inspired Peter. If someone came to you and asked you to read the Koran or pick your religious book, and pray and ask if it was correct, would you do it?
Here's a challenge for both of you: Set the Book of Mormon down for a month and only study the Bible. You believe the Bible is Scripture so it should not be a stretch for you. We're told that the Bible is living and active, able to divide the deepest things within us. Ask God to teach you if there is any discrepancy between the Bible and the Book of Mormon and see what He does. Ask Him to teach you, to reveal to you the truth, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
One last thing. Thaddeus said, “If the Book of Mormon teaches you nothing else, let it teach you that you can ask God and he will manifest the truth through the Holy Ghost.”
The Bible already tells me that. I don't need the Book of Mormon to teach me 'truth' if that 'truth' contradicts what the One True God already taught me in the Bible.
Brandon,
Regardless of whether you believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God (which is the real issue here, I think), I am at least glad that you are at the point where you can say, “If God speaks today, I will listen.” Bravo.
I've actually been taking your challenge for a while now. Though I try to draw from all scripture when writing these posts and making lessons and things, my personal study has been almost exclusively in the Old Testament lately. I have to say: I have always found them to be just as much in harmony as the bible is with itself. I know you disagree, but then you and I clearly have different interpretations of the same passages. (Also, wouldn't any glaring inconsistencies between the Book of Mormon and the Bible be more apparent when reading both anyway?)
As for grace and works: I think that the Evangelical Christian world largely misunderstands what we believe. Let's get this straight: there is nothing we can do to “deserve” our salvation. No true Christians believe they can work their way to heaven, and Mormons are no exception.
You've likely been reading up on what we believe by people who are not us. If you really want to know what we believe about grace, I would highly recommend the following:
Megan's article, from our own site (and the excellent articles linked on that site)
This speech , given at BYU by Dr. Stephen Robinson
This article
This article
I'm probably overlooking some good ones. Thaddeus, any other recommendations?
Dave,
Thanks again for your comments.
“…my personal study has been almost exclusively in the Old Testament lately.I have to say: I have always found them to be just as much in harmony as the bible is with itself. I know you disagree, but then you and I clearly have different interpretations of the same passages. (Also, wouldn't any glaring inconsistencies between the Book of Mormon and the Bible be more apparent when reading both anyway?)”
You are dead on in that we interpret passages differently.
And yes, reading both to look for inconsistencies is what I assumed you would do. I meant more to read the Bible and see inconsistencies from what you already knew of the Book of Mormon. I wasn't clear there. The real issue is that of eisegesis. (as opposed to exegesis) That is when someone reads a meaning into the text as opposed to getting your meaning from the text. It is very easy to approach the Bible with a set of beliefs, and then when reading it, find support there for your particular beliefs. Look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe in the Bible, but they come to vastly different conclusions than either of us. That is because they read the Bible to find support for their beliefs. You can make the Bible support anything you want by doing that. I was hoping that by reading the Bible alone, you might see it for what it is, instead of through Mormon lenses. Basically, I know several Mormons who have read through the Bible (NT, too) and when they read the Bible for itself, began to have serious questions regarding the major tenants of the Mormon faith. I hope that makes sense.
“Let's get this straight: there is nothing we can do to “deserve” our salvation. No true Christians believe they can work their way to heaven, and Mormons are no exception.
You've likely been reading up on what we believe by people who are not us.”
I got that quote from here by Dallin Oaks: http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-26-23,00.html
The context of that quote follows:
“Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints who give this answer of denying the grace of God through claiming they can earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi taught, “For we labor diligently . . . to persuade our children . . . to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32)”
On je rekao, "jer znamo da je po milosti smo spašeni, nakon svega što možemo učiniti" Nakon svega što možemo učiniti? Ali Biblija uči u Efežanima 2, "8For milošću ste spašeni po vjeri, i da ne dolazi od vas: to je dar od Boga: 9Not radova, da ne bi tko hvastao. "
On je doista Mormon i ako ne vjeruju u ono što je on učio, nisam siguran što da kažem.
Kako pomiriti tu razliku tamo? Kako tumačite da je daleko razliku između Mormonove knjige i Bibliju?
Ja doista sam znatiželjan o tome - ne samo u nekim akademskim ili raspravljati smislu. Imam puno drugih pitanja previše, ali možda sam prenategnutog moj posjet na ovaj post.
Brandon,
Postoje dvije vrste djela ili djela. Vjerna djela i djela mrtva.
Vjerna radovi su stvari koje kršćani učiniti zbog svoje vjere u Isusa Krista. Kao što je James je rekao: "Pokažite mi svoju vjeru bez djela tvoja, a ja ću ti pokazati svoju vjeru mojih radova" ( Jakov 2:18 ). Nebeski Otac još uvijek zahtijeva od nas da se pokajemo, se krsti, pročitajte tekstove, molite, itd. Ali mi ove stvari jer imamo vjeru u Isusa Krista. Mi ne vjerujemo poslušnost nas spašava samo po sebi, ali ozbiljan napor da bude poslušan Bogu je završio po milosti Krista.
Dead radovi nisu povezani s Kristom na sve. To je isto razlog Kain žrtva bio neprihvatljiv. On je prolazio kroz prijedloga žrtvu bez misli Spasitelja. Isto s farizejima. To je kada mislimo da naša dobra djela imaju moć da izbriše naše grijehe, da smo u opasnosti od Hellfire.
Vjerujemo moramo pokazati da nas vjerni Kristu kroz naše akcije, a ne samo u našim riječima i mislima. Isus je učio: "Ne svaki koji reče mi, Gospodine, Gospodine, ući u kraljevstvo nebesko, nego onaj koji čini volju Oca mojega, koji je na nebesima" ( Matej 07:21 ). Nakon svega što možemo učiniti fraza govori o vjernicima djela.
Ako ste zainteresirani za ovu raspravu bilo dalje, pročitajte u člancima već smo preporučene prvi. To će vam pomoći da vidite gdje se dolazi iz.
Dragi Brandon, bio sam čitajući ovo naprijed-nazad između vas, Thad i Dave i mislim da je velika rasprava. To je lijepo za vidjeti nekoga tko je posvećen svojim uvjerenjima, hvala.
Želim postaviti tri pitanja, zašto vjeruju da je Biblija, samo po sebi, dovoljno? Što znači to da je dovoljno? Isto tako, zašto ne mogu Bog nam dati dodatni Pismo, ili nazovite Proroci danas baš kao što je on uvijek ima?
Brandon,
Prvo, mislim da treba dati ljudima više kredita. To možete učiniti da bez slažući se s njima. Svatko tumači Bibliju kroz prizmu onoga što oni vjeruju (i više od toga, svatko tumači cijeli život iskustvo kroz prizmu onoga što oni vjeruju.)
Kada pročitate Mateja 25, gdje je razlika između ovaca i koza je ono što učiniše svojih bližnjih, bez sumnje tumačite da je Sveto pismo znači nešto drugo nego "djela su važna za vaše spasenje." Kada ste pročitali Jakova " vjera bez djela je mrtva, samoće ", možda ćete reći da James riječi primjenjuju se samo na Židove, ili nešto slično. Možda ćete reći da Pavao, kad govori o trebaju priznati Kristovo ime i imati vjeru, da su ti postupci tvoje ne ograničavaju slobodan milost. Sve napisano će se tumačiti, tu je nijedan uzimajući okolo njega, osim ako sam autor objašnjava što je on mislio.
U svakom slučaju, opet, vaša pitanja su puno bolje objasniti te članke sam povezane, posebno posljednja dva. Hvala što ste došli na!
Također uživanje u dijalog.
Ovo su citati iz jednog od članaka koje preporučujemo:
"Postati jedno s Kristom, a kao partneri zajedno radimo za moj spas i moje uzdizanja. [Ne vjerujem ovu]. Moje obveze i njegova imovina ulazi u svaki drugi. Sam učiniti sve što ja mogu učiniti, a on čini ono što sam još ne može učiniti. Nas dvoje zajedno smo savršeni. "
"Ja ću vam reći što. Daješ mi sve što sam dobio i zagrljaj i poljubac, a bicikl je tvoje. "Pa, ona nikada nije bila glupa. Dala mi je zagrljaj i poljubac. Dala mi je šezdeset i jednu centi .... Vozio sam polako uz kraj nje je palo na pamet da je to usporedba za pomirenja Krista. [Ne vjerujem to bilo]
"Tu je dobra vijest i loše vijesti ovdje. Loša vijest je da je još uvijek zahtijeva naš najbolji napor. [To zahtijeva za što?] Moramo pokušati, moramo raditi, moramo učiniti sve što možemo. No, dobra vijest je da što je učinio sve što možemo, to je dovoljno, za sada. "
Na temelju tih citata iz članka preporučuje da, imam na sljedeća pitanja:
1. Što ako ne učiniti sve što mogu. Ako sam samo da samo malo truda, mogu biti spašen? Je milost Krista dovoljno za mene, ako ja ne radim svoj "najbolji napor?"
2. Jeste li učinili sve što možete? Jeste li doista uložiti svoje najbolje napore? Ne postoji ništa drugo što možete učiniti da ne rade? Ako ne, onda je Kristovo djelo dovoljna za vas? Kako ćete znati?
Želio bih da objasni svoje misli na to ovisno o tome što su vaši odgovori na gore navedena pitanja. JA stvarno poštovati Momci, uzimanje vremena za rješavanje tih pitanja. Ono što mi se vide kao ozbiljnih problema, smatraju zdravom nauku, tako da mi je važno da razumijemo jedni druge.
Radujemo se Vašem odgovoru.
bfrancisco - želim obratiti na vaša pitanja: Dopustite mi prvi dobili ovaj komentar se i odgovor na njega. Ne želim dodati previše za ovu raspravu, ali želim da znaš ono što ja vjerujem.
Dragi Brandon, sve su to dobra pitanja. Ja sam ne idući čak i pokušati zamijeniti Dave ili Thaddeus u ovom razgovoru, ali sve su to pitanja na koja smo se bave previše. Kada se dovoljno dovoljno, činim sve što mogu, itd? Kao što sam čitao vaše postove nekoliko puta vidim da ste stvarno misli i pokušava razumjeti što vjerujemo i svi smo zahvalni da ste super!
Htio bih dodati svoje dvije centi za ono što je vrijedno. Kad uđemo u vode krštenja mi smo izradu savez s Bogom da ga poslužiti i zadržati njegov i njegov sin zapovijedi. Kao i kod bilo kojeg saveza postoje obećanja s obje strane. Podrazumijeva se da nikada nećemo biti u mogućnosti učiniti sve savršeno, ali to nas ne oslobađa od pokušavamo učiniti naš najbolji. Kao što smo premjestiti iz milosti na milosti u našem razumijevanju naše sposobnosti da zapovijedi povećava. U svakom trenutku na putu, ako smo stvaranje vrijedan napor onda smo savršeni u Kristu, to je ono što citira iz Moroni 10:32-33.
So how can we know if what we are doing is sufficient? I think it is pretty easy actually. When I lay down at night I take an inventory of the day. I ask myself is there anything that I did today that was not what Jesus would have done? If there is I get down on my knees right then and ask for God's forgiveness, which forgiveness is possible because of his Son's atonement in my behalf and I promise to do better tomorrow. Then I go to church on Sunday and renew my covenants with God that I made in the waters of baptism by partaking of the sacrament. I promise that I am willing to take upon myself the name of Christ (be his disciple) and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given me. In return for this, I am promised that I can always have the Holy Ghost with me. Being worthy to have the Holy Ghost with me at all times is God's sign to me that I am perfect in Christ. Will I make mistakes again? Sure, but I quickly repent and each week take the sacrament. Thus in essence at all times, I can be clean because of the grace of God, not because of my works, but I am giving it my best with Christ's help. Thus, my end of the covenant is upheld and by the grace of God, which is made available through his Son, I am clean and “perfect” before God. Not because I am perfect by my works, but because I am yoked to Jesus Christ and he makes me perfect.
Thank you, bfransico, for sharing your thoughts.
Oh, what a burden you bear. Reading that just makes me so sad, because the truth is that you will never
be able to do ALL that you can do. Nikada. You will always (this side of Heaven) sin on purpose, make foolish choices, lust in your heart, covet, wander from righteousness. You will do those things (like I will do those things), because in essence you didn't try hard enough. You could have done more in your efforts. You could have prayed more, read your books more, sacrificed more. If you could have done more, tried harder, then according to the Book of Mormon, the grace of Christ isn't sufficient.
You stated above: “As with any covenant there are promises on both sides.” This is part of the problem. This is not always true. We can look at the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12:1-3. This is a covenant between the Lord and Abraham (and his decedents) It was not a conditional covenant. It did not matter what Abraham did, God would fulfill the covenant. The Davidic covenant in 2 Samuel 7:12-16 (the promised Messiah) was also a non-conditional covenant. God would fulfill (and did fulfill) His promise regardless of the obedience/works of the Israelites. Now, don't get me wrong, there are conditional covenants laid out in the Bible, but God makes it clear at the time of the covenant what is required. The final covenant is the covenant of grace, and that is the unconditional promise of God to those who believe.
You also stated that “When I lay down at night I take an inventory of the day. I ask myself is there anything that I did today that was not what Jesus would have done? If there is I get down on my knees right then and ask for God's forgiveness, which forgiveness is possible because of his Son's atonement in my behalf and I promise to do better tomorrow.” (Do you always do better tomorrow…I mean is that an appropriate promise?) As a Christian, I desire to please my Savior. I desire to obey Him in all that I do. The difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, is that the Bible teaches that I must first be transformed through the work of Christ (who we believe is God eternal, not created…not like us) in order to have any hope of living rightly. Then, I live rightly as a response to the grace I've been given, not as a condition of it. God will NOT remove His Spirit from me if I screw up. Even if I screw up royally, if He did, I would be screwed, b/c I have no power in myself to do good. When I screw up, or sin (which I do every time I think a bad thought, judge the heart of another, lust, get angry with my kids, act impatient on the highway, just to name a few) it is the Spirit IN me that brings me to repentance. The Holy Spirit in my life is the seal that guarantees my inheritance. It would not be a guarantee if it could be voided by my lack of trying or my sin.
The following is an aside, and I really don't want to get into a debate regarding this as we have plenty to discuss with the topic at hand. We believe in two judgments as described in the Bible. The first is the Great White Throne Judgment, where the lambs will be separated from the goats. That is basically where God judges those for either salvation, or damnation (Revelation 20:11-14). The second is the Bema seat (1 Cor. 3:10-15). This judgment is for those who are believers, and this is where works are judged as either gold/silver, or hay/straw. One will be consumed by fire, the other will be presented to Christ as an offering and a reward will be given. A reward from Christ! But regardless of what happens to the works, the person being judged at the Bema is saved from damnation. Now…I don't believe (I could be wrong) that you believe this, and I don't bring it up in order to debate this theology, only to give reason for why good works/obedience matters to the non-Mormon. No one would say that obedience does not matter. It matters very much according to the Bible (it is how we demonstrate that we love Jesus – that's important)it is just that since we can't be perfect (as you believe) and we can't even do our best to be perfect (not sure if you believe) then our works don't count as squat for our salvation. Not even 61 pennies. But they do count as a demonstration of our faith and love.
I provide the Bible references not to “Bible bash” but only to offer Biblical support for what I am saying. Of course you are invited to look those verses up and read them in context as I am sure that you will.
Grace by your definition, is not grace that is truly sufficient. If it was, then why must you “do all you can do?”
I would still like Thadeus and Dave to answer the questions that I posed in the last comment I made as well, if you have time. And one final question: Every night you repent, and every Sunday you renew your vow, your promise…what happens to the Mormon who dies before the evening? Or before Sunday morning, or who had a really busy week and forgot to really repent at all for a couple of days and then dies? (I am not asking this rhetorically…I would like to know what you believe regarding this.)
One other of the articles states that “one of the untrue doctrines found in modern Christendom is the concept that man can gain salvation (meaning in the kingdom of God) by grace alone and without obedience. This soul-destroying doctrine has the obvious effect of lessening the determination of an individual to conform to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” This statement could not be more false. I do not obey because of threat of Hell. I believe in grace alone for my salvation. That makes me want to serve Him all the more. Knowing the huge debt that I have no way of paying, yet Christ paid the debt (in its entirety) makes me want to serve Him. When Christians don't desire to serve their Lord with their whole heart, it is more often because they don't understand the greatness of their penalty, and their utter and complete need for Him. I want to serve and obey my Lord Jesus because I love Him and for no other reason. I am motivated by love, not fear, for perfect love casteth out fear.
Thanks again for this discussion.
Please, if you have time, go to my blog ( http://brandonandjenny.blogspot.com/2009/03/mormons-mormons-everywhere.html ) and read the comment by Chris Pray. It is close to the bottom.
Dear Brandon,
I really appreciate how you have explained so well what you believe with regard to grace. I don't feel any burden though, I do what I do because I do love God and his Son, not because of fear or guilt. As I have thought about this subject so many times and tried to elucidate how to explain these concepts simply, I just don't know how I can explain it any better. I think it would serve us well to realize that in many ways we want the same thing–to do what Christ would do and live a life centered on Him.
Brandon, you are doing so much good in the world, or rather God is doing so much good in the world through you and I am so happy to see that you love God and want to serve him. I am sure that you are changing lives and helping others to find happiness in Christ and that is wonderful. It is too bad that there aren't more people like you in the world.
Brandon,
I know you're caught up on this “all we can do” wording. Perhaps the words in Alma 24:11 would help you:
“And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain.”
When I read this conversation, it seems ridiculous. We're talking completely past each other. You point out that we can never do “ALL we can do,” in the sense that as soon as we pass up just one little opportunity to do something, and as soon as we commit one little sin, oops! We haven't done all we can do, and we don't qualify for salvation!
That's ridiculous, and no Mormon believes that. What we're trying to say, and what Ben (if I may presume) was trying to say is that to repent before God, and to be able to witness to him that we will be willing to keep his commandments and remember him…that is all we can do. Enter into covenant relationships with God, that is all we can do.
Now, if you happen to be Calvinist (you write like one), and you believe in irresistible grace, then yes, we disagree. We think that you actually have to do something to accept the grace of God. Faith. Repentance. Baptism. But there are a lot of Arminians out there who also disagree with you on that.
I took a New Testament class from the man who gave that BYU speech. He would always complain that people misinterpreted his “parable of the bicycle.” They, like you, think of the little girl paying her sixty-one cents as a symbol of us contributing somehow to our own salvation. But just the contrary–the point is to show that we could never possibly hope to ever make even the smallest of dents in our debt to justice. That Jesus pays 100%. (This is from the man's own mouth).
Now, we do believe that salvation is dependent on our accepting it(in that we may disagree). And the “accepting” involves making and keeping covenants. But having good things be a part of accepting Jesus Christ is a far cry from being saved by your own merits.
I personally thought that the third and fourth articles I linked to you dealt with that especially well. Did you read them?
1. What if I don't do ALL I can. If I only do just a little effort, can I be saved? Is the grace of Christ sufficient for me if I don't do my “best effort?”
Jesus Christ gave himself as sacrifice to end the tyranny of condemnation under the impossibly strict law of Moses. Rather than the law judging our every fault, Jesus became our new judge and He offers mercy to the penitent (see Alma 42 ). Penitence is not measured with a laundry list of good and bad choices, but is a condition of one's heart.
Just after His ascension to heaven in Jerusalem, Jesus came to America and declared, “Ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood…and ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit” ( 3 Nephi 9:19-20 ).
2. Have you done all you can? Have you really put forth your best effort? There is nothing else that you could do that you aren't doing? If not, then is Christ's work sufficient for you? How do you know?
Like Dave said, it isn'ta matter of doing everything we can possibly think of without missing an iota. That just takes us back to the strictness of the law. It's a matter of doing what is available for us. “All we can do” to show Christ our broken heart and contrite spirit is to enter into prescribed covenants and honor them in our hearts, minds, and deeds.
Effort is required to maintain our penitence. We don't believe that once we first feel forgiveness, we are forgiven for every sin we will subsequently commit. Thus, humility before God and repentance are essential throughout life. The purpose of life is to become more and more like Christ each day. This kind of metamorphosis doesn't happen in an instant; it takes a lifetime or more, and it's why we're here .
We can feel assured that the Lord accepts our sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit as we continue feeling our sins lifted, and as we are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Brandon, since we have very different views on this topic, would you tell us what you believe the purpose of life is?
Hello gentleman (not to offend any ladies out there – just haven't seen any post here),
Been busy. Thank you for your answers and honesty.
I'd like to answer bfrancisco's question but that will take more time than I have right now so if it's alright I will defer that until later in the week. Please excuse the delay…I'm not deflecting!
Thaddeus – You asked, “Brandon, since we have very different views on this topic, would you tell us what you believe the purpose of life is?”
I'd love to. But I'm going to steal from what some other's have said. I believe the purpose of life is to love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength and to love my neighbor in the same way. That sounds familiar, I know. I'll also steal from the Westminster Confession (which just because I agree with the shorter catechism doesn't make me a Calvinist). It states, “Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.”
The purpose of life is to glorify God by being in an eternal love relationship with Him.
Dave – I did read the articles and already quoted one of them. I'm not a Calvinist. I hold some of the tenets of Calvinism, but only 3-4 of the TULIP doctrines, and not limited atonement. My wife is a Methodist and I enjoy Wesleyan theology, but I'm not going to get in a fist fight defending prevenient grace either.
I think one of the issues between Mormons and Christians is that we say the same words but do not always mean the same things.
For example, when we say, “God” we mean two different things.
What I mean:
There is only one God.
Is. 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,And there is no God besides Me. (Also see Deut. 6:4,Isaiah 43:11; 44:8; 45:5)
God is a Spirit without Flesh and Bones; not a man.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
What Mormon's (from my understanding and from the literature that I have read) mean:
There are more than one God. (Maybe only one God for this world, but God's father was a god, and it is also possible for you, in your theology, to someday be a god)
“And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)”
Bog je poput nas.
"Bog je nekoć kao što smo sada, i uzvišen čovjek, i sjedi na prijestolju u nebu tamošnji! . . . Mi smo zamislili da je Bog bio Bog od vječnosti. Ja ću pobiti tu ideju i odnijeti veo, tako da možete vidjeti, "(nauk proroka Josepha Smitha, str. 345).
Bog je čovjek, ili jako vole čovjeka.
"" Otac ima tijelo od mesa i kostiju, kao opipljive kao čovjeka "(Nauk i savezi 130:22; Usporedi s Alma 18:26-27, 22:9-10).
"Stoga znamo da su Otac i Sin su oblika i stas savršenih muškaraca, svaki od njih posjeduje materijalna tijela. . . od mesa i kostiju "(članci vjere, po James Talmage, str. 38)"
Kad kažem, "Isus", što znači dvije različite stvari.
Ono što mislim:
Isus je vječni Sin. On je druga osoba Trojstva. On je Bog u tijelu i čovjeka: Bog u tijelu.
"U početku bijaše Riječ, i Riječ bijaše kod Boga i Riječ bijaše Bog." Ivan 1:01
(Vidi također Ivan 1:14; Kol 2, 9) i stvoritelj svih stvari (Kološanima 1:15-17).
Isus je rođen od djevice Marije.
Izaija 07:14 "Stoga sam Gospodin će vam dati znak: Evo, djevica će biti s djetetom i roditi sina, i ona će se zvati Njegovo ime Emanuel. Vidi također (Mt 1:22-25, Luka 1:26-35)
Što Mormonovu je sredina (opet, naše razumijevanje, a ako je ovo krivo, to mora biti jasno):
"Rođenje Spasitelja je prirodno kao su rođenju naše djece, to je rezultat prirodnog djelovanja. On sudjeluju od krvi i mesa - bio rođen od Oca, kao što smo od naših otaca ", (časopis diskurse, vol. 8, str 115.)."
"Krist je rođen od jednog Oca Immortal na isti način na koji smrtni ljudi su smrtni rođen od otaca" (Mormon doktrina, Bruce McConkie, str. 547) "
"Isus je doslovno duh-brat Lucifera, stvaranje (Evanđelje Kroz vijeku, str. 15)"
Veliki razlog za miscommunication je naš neuspjeh da se dogovore o uvjetima i njihova značenja. Kažem to s obzirom na sve što je vama ljudi. Ja ne pokušavam biti osobno kritična, samo kritična tekstova predstavljenih u svjetlu onoga što Biblija uči i u svjetlu onoga što Crkva uči od Krista. Imam ogromnu količinu poštovanja za marljivost i snagu svoje vjere. Kao što je tvoj prijatelj (a ja ne smatram vam prijatelj) osjećam teret ukazati što se čini mi se da je ogromna i kritične pogreške. Pogotovo jer te pogreške mogu imati vječni značaj. Imajte na umu da cijeli ovaj dijalog je u duhu ljubavi i poštovanja.
Brandon,
Počeli ste s tražeći arheoloških dokaza za Mormonove knjige. Onda ste se preselili na potrebu za post-biblijske objave. Tada je milost i djela. Sada trojstvo i priroda Boga.
Ja sam na početku sumnjate da ste zapravo ne žele znati što vjerujemo, i da ste samo ići dolje poznati praonica popis omiljenih evanđeoskih argumente protiv mormona, i pokušati pokazati da naša vjerovanja u suprotnosti s Biblija. Sve što trebate učiniti je pokazati da je naša vjerovanja u suprotnosti vaše tumačenje Biblije. Mi možemo učiniti isto. Na primjer, trojstvo. Ovdje je popis od 65 tekstova u Bibliji, koja kao da upućuju na to da je Otac i Isus su dva odvojena bića. Ne sumnjam da ćete ih tumače drugačije.
Ovo nije forum za tvrdeći o tome da li je Biblija u suprotnosti naša uvjerenja. Ovo je mjesto gdje ljudi dolaze kako bi saznali od nas ono što vjerujemo, a ne da nam reći što misle da vjerujemo i zašto misle da je to krivo. Vjerojatno postoje forumi za da iako. Za naše odgovore na tih argumenata, preporučam fairlds.org i farms.byu.edu. Tako smo vjerojatno ćete samo uputiti na tim mjestima, gdje sva vaša pitanja već odgovorili.
Citati ste posted o prirodi Boga i Isusa su, u stvari, citati iz ranih crkvenih vođa (ili Bruce R. McConkie). Osim toga, ne znam ništa o njima. Nisu puno je elaborirao. Kako je otac Isus? Ne znam. Gdje je Bog došao? Ne znam. Naći ćete da su ove teme nisu nešto poput mainstreama u LDS svijetu. Ja sam gledao na konferenciji za opću LDS deset sati dva puta godišnje za moj cijeli život, a ja nikad nisam čuo bilo koju od tih spomenutih tema, ikad. To ne znači da to nije istina, to je samo ako ste u potrazi za nekim pojašnjenje, nema puno možemo učiniti za vas. Možda Bog će smatrali da ih pojasniti.
S obzirom, međutim, da su Isus i Sotona kao braća, ta izjava je malo zabludu. Sam vas uputiti na ovaj članak.
Dave,
Čini mi se da sam vas uvrijedio. To nije bila moja namjera. Ja doista pokušava razjasniti pojmove, ali u procesu sam stao na nekim prstima. Ispričavam se ako sam rekao nešto ofenzivu.
Sa obzirom, međutim, možete napraviti previše pretpostavki. Možete pretpostaviti da je kalvinska (što nisam) i preuzimate imam veliki plan o rušenju mormonsku teologiju (što ja ne). Tijek misli u svom prvom stavku proizlaze iz moje pretpostavke da je rasprava i one misli tekle kao što sam nastojao otkriti što vi stvarno vjerujete. Ne možete me otpustiti od strane me stiskanje u kategoriji.
Bio sam odgovaranje na pitanja u vezi Thadeus točke života, a onda sam samo htio pojasniti što sam mislio su pretpostavke da je napravio jer smo pogrešno jedni značenja iste riječi.
Naslov ove stranice je: "Što je Mormonova Believe". Rasprava i rasprava su trebali donijeti jasnoću, i iako ste odgovoriti na mnoga moja pitanja jako dobro doći u obrani i bacati pretpostavke na mene odbaciti ono što ja govorim. Siguran sam da sam često napraviti istu stvar, ali nadam se da ću izbjeći.
Imam mormonsku susjeda. Mi stvarno ih volim. Mi smo gledajući svoje pudlica, dok su oni izvan grada. Želim da bolje razumiju što oni vjeruju i tako sam došao ovdje iz nekog dijaloga, pa čak i rasprava kako bi se bolje razumjeli Mormonizam. Mi doista ne razgovarati s njima o tome što vjerujemo, ali sigurno ste razumjeli da je većina razgovor o djeci i koliko je kišilo, pa kad ste dolaze za drugi film noći. Tako smo došli ovamo, jer Thaddeus je vrlo ljubazno komentirao na mom blogu me usmjerena ovdje za dodatna pitanja. Ipak, kad sam tražio jasnoću tražeći ono što sam mislio je pravi pitanja, ja sam odbio.
Ja ne pokušavam biti pogrešne. Im 'težak to odgonetati kako Mormoni vjeruju kako je Biblija i Mormonova knjiga može stajati rame uz rame, kao ravnopravnoj otkrivenja od Boga i sam da je težak da biste dobili neki sporazum o uvjetima.
Ako kad kažem "drvo" možete misliti kaput stablo ili papagaja i mislim da se od Elm stabla, onda kada sam rekao, "Idemo u potrazi za stabla u šumi" nećemo raditi istu stvar. Ja sam pokušava donijeti jasnoću naše rasprave, a dolaskom do sporazuma o dvije vrlo važne stvari: tko je Bog i tko je Isus.
It seems clear that we are indeed not talking about the same thing when we say those terms. If we cannot agree on those terms (the 'definition' so to speak of God), then our discussion may have come to an end. I hope not.
This discussion has been wonderful for me. I hope it at least of benefit to you.
Grace and peace to you, Dave.
Brandon,
You certainly haven't offended me, and I apologize for making assumptions about you being a Calvinist. I definitely know what it's like to have people assume things about what we believe, so I really should know better.
I have had a lot of that conversation with my Calvinist friends lately, who truly do believe that it is 100% grace that saves us. Being a Calvinist isn'ta bad thing either; when I said that I was just trying to point out that if you were a Calvinist, we definitely disagree on that point. And as my Calvinist friends have pointed out, anything less than irresistible grace admits that we ourselves are required to do something in order to be saved. So I was trying to point out that in the grace and works debate, the idea that God would require something of you before he saves you is not uncommon in Christianity. I apologize if that didn't come off right. And I'm happy to know that I was wrong when I said I suspected that you were just here to try to show us that our beliefs contradict the bible.
I understand what you mean about terminology. Words like “God”, “Jesus”, and “saved” are loaded with theological assumptions. I think, though, I disagree with your statement that “if we cannot agree on those terms, then our discussion may have come to an end.” I think it just boils down to understanding each other. To use your analogy, as long as I understand that when you say “tree,” you're talking about an Elm tree, I understand you completely. So we believed different things about God. As long as we both understand what we each respectively are picturing in our heads when we say things like “God” and “Jesus,” then we can have meaningful conversation without needing to agree.
I'm sorry that you feel “dismissed.” That was most definitely not my intention. On what questions do you feel dismissed?
I'm also glad that you feel this conversation has been a benefit to you. In what ways has it helped you?
Brandon,
For what it's worth, it did seem like you were just looking for the chance to one-up us in an argument, by your darting from topic to topic. Especially since we see these same tired arguments frequently from evangelical Christians who have no other object than declaring our doctrines false.
We are happy to entertain questions, but we'd prefer to do it with people who listen to our side and give our arguments full consideration.
Which is why I'm thrilled to learn you are willing to do that! We'd love to demonstrate how our theology is fully compatible with the Bible, as long as you recognize that you and we don't share the same interpretation of every verse.
Like Dave said, our beliefs don't contradict the Bible, but they may contradict your interpretation of it.
Groovy. Glad we can keep chatting. Dave, I felt dismissed on my stance on grace. But that's Ok. I know that wasn't your intention.
Well, we disagree on who God and Jesus are (at least I think that's what Dave was saying).
And our interpretation of the Bible is different. That seems clear since our conclusions are different. So…if we're both reading the same verses and we both think we're right, can both of us be right?
I only assume you guys think you are correct in your interpretation of the Bible. I sure believe I'm correct. It would be really silly for one of us to KNOW we were wrong and say we were right. But I'm almost certain neither of us is doing that.
we disagree on who God and Jesus are
I would hesitate to phrase it that way. When we talk about Jesus, we are talking about the same person, but our conceptions of Him are different. We believe different things about Jesus.
The reason I nitpick is because I've run into a few people who claim that “Mormons believe in a different Jesus,” but that leads naive listeners to think we worship some Jesus Jones from Connecticut or something.
The Jesus we believe in was born of Mary in Bethlehem. He walked on water in Galilee. He was crucified on Calvary by Roman soldiers. We believe everything that is written about Him in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. He has a LOT in common with the Jesus you believe in. So much in common, I think it's safe to assume we're talking about the same person.
We may disagree on some details of His exact nature, but we agree on who He is (in general terms). Please read an article called “ Jesus the Christ ” to see for yourself.
Sorry for the gap here. I just have not had the time.
I definitely agree that we're talking about the same guy, Jesus of Nazareth. But we do not believe the same things about Him or His nature. I say that instead of 'details of His exact nature' because I don't think the things we disagree on are not details at all, but come down to the very nature of God.
There is a wonderful book named Knowledge of the Holy by AW Tozer and I would recommend it to you guys to read. It's all about the attributes of God. In it, Tozer says,
“What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us. The history of mankind will probably show that no people has ever risen above its religion, and man's spiritual history will positively demonstrate that no religion has ever been greater than its idea of God.”
The book is about thinking rightly about God, not just thinking about Him. It's one of my favorite devotional books.
Sorry I never got into the sufficiency of Scripture. It's really a moot point given that we will not agree on one another's interpretation.
To that point, however. Do you believe there is ONE correct interpretation of Scripture?
Our ideas about God are different
Interesting to read some people here playing doctrinal ping pong. Strike one is dealing with people we don't know in person on the Internet. I think many people see any issue as entertainment. Any situation that does not require action, that does not present consequences and accountability, is by nature, a fantasy.
Is The Book of Mormon the word of God or not? I know it is. I've paid the price to know….reading, pondering, praying about it. I worked for two years solid to create a free site for anyone who wants to really understand the Book of Mormon…..plainBookofMormon.com.
It seems that online, we find more intellectuals who want to pretend they are humble and have faith in Christ, but in the end, will be found to be egg-heads who really wanted everything their way. To be a true Christian is to be humble and teachable…..willing to do anything to further the Lord's will. It's the least we can do, if we love Him. He did say, “my sheep hear my voice”. And another man said, “If we don't follow the voice of the Good Shepard, than whose sheep are we?” I like that line of reasoning. Satan is so clever, to entrap people with their own smug form of Christian living.
I hope we can all rise above the smugness, and just do the will of the Lord, expecting His grace to save us, “after all we can do” as John wrote.
Tim
Tim
I have prayed about whether the book of Mormon was true and God's answer to me was “No”. In addition to my prayers,
When the Book of Mormon has so many errors, inconsistencies and alterations that the only way to explain them away is to say “Just pray to see if it is true”, then you've got a real problem with what you believe. I implore all Mormons to examine what you believe critically, independent of the LDS church and your elders. You cannot go to your elders with the questions the outside world is asking. They will only tell you the same thing they've always told you. That's like asking Hulk Hogan if he belives WWF is real wrestling. OF COURSE he's going to tell you “yes” and tell you what you want to hear. He IS a wrestler.
Step outside of the Mormon bubble and examine what you believe critically. Read and learn about all the true information that the rest of the world has access to about Mormonism. Believe it or not, you can really get access to all the original Mormon documents and files and see what has changed between then and your present day materials. If the Mormon scriptures are as perfect & true as the LDS church boasts, why all the changes over the years? If you ask me, the problem is a false religion coupled with cultural relativism.
And don't give me the old “so as it is correctly translated” excuse. Mormons basically took what Josheph Smith had “translated” from the tablets at face value. Furthermore, “Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics” never existed! Talk about a “so as it is correctly translated” conundrum. And I venture to say that if both the first AND second tablets had broken, JS would have produced a third tablet……tada!
Regarding the comment “We may disagree on some details of His exact nature, but we agree on who He is (in general terms).”
The “some details” are PRETTY IMPORTANT details. Mormons basically trample the very essence of who Jesus is, based on the Holy Bible, and it's a slap in the face to Christians (yes…the “real true ultra super” Christians of the Holy Bible). …..(just poking a little fun at the latest “true Christian campaign headed up by the LDS church)
Jesus WAS NOT a brother of Satan.
Jesus IS a part of the Holy Trinity of Father-Son-Holy spirit as ONE GOD-HEAD, not three separate Gods.
GOD was, is, and always will be the same. God was NOT created from a man. The belief God came from a man basically disempowers God in blasphemy and renders Him incapable of all that He has actually done with Creation. Man cannot do what God can do. Man cannot become a God. When Mormons claim that they become Gods, they are making the same mistake Satan did.
Those are a couple of the “some details” that Mormons try to pass off as unimportant.
Mormons, I implore you to step outside your “comfort zone” and really take a look at what you believe from an impartial perspective. Take a look at all the questions and evidence available that proves Mormonism is NOT christianity and is not true . Don't hold on to something false just because you're worried what you're family will think or if your church will excommunicate you (that's some loving church). It's a tough thing to swallow your pride and humble yourselves into researching information that would prove what you believe to be wrong. Who wants to find out they've believed something false for so long? I know I wouldn't, but it would be worth it if my eternity depended on it, which it does! And so does yours!
the prolonged discussion with Brandon suggests that if God is really interested in using the scriptures to help the people understand the gospel, then more clarity is needed. Here we see a few articulate and educated individuals who can't seem to come to an agreement on what certain scriptures say or mean. Over 600 “Christian” churches have different interpretations as to what some of the key concepts of the scriptures mean. Has God just given mankind a big puzzle to figure out, which they apparently can't do, (In fact some groups have killed people over these disagreements)? Or is God interested enough in us lowly humans to provide some clarification through other scriptures and even some living prophets?
As for Terry, you sound pretty mad.?
“Over 600 “Christian” churches have different interpretations as to what some of the key concepts of the scriptures mean.”
While this is true, the interpretations of scriptures of the different “Christian” churches is still based on the same bible. As a non LDS christian, the use of the Book of Mormon by the LDS church is the part that is hard for me to reconcile.
In the end… I don't believe it matters. As long as a person accepts christ and recognizes that he is our saviour… I think he/she is in a good place.
I am a Somali young man,i live in Mogadishu,I need to know where to go after death,which religion is true? Here Islam is been used to kill people,please need advice and prayer.
I say all people who live in this world are 1 and they are brothers regardlss of colour or geographical
Abdi, you are very right. We are all brothers and sisters no matter where you live or what color of skin you have. I am glad you have found this website.
I will pray for you. You must also pray for help and to know what to do. We know that God is our Father and He loves us. He will help you find the true religion. Please read more about prayer here , and begin reading the Book of Mormon here . The Book of Mormon helps me every day to know what Heavenly Father wants me to do. I am sure it will also help you.
I wish the Church had a presence in Somalia, but right now there are no chapels or missionaries there. Abdi, if you want to keep learning about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, please keep posting comments. We'd love to hear more about you and what you are thinking about.
I'm so sorry to read this Abdi! You are right as Thaddeus said, we are all brothers/sisters in Christ, created by an almighty loving God. I have my opinions on the Muslim Religion as well as the Mormon Religion, but I will leave that alone because I am not here to scrutinize or criticize anyone. I do agree with Thaddeus also in saying that you should Pray to God about this matter and he will surely give you an answer but you must pray in faith. I disagree on reading the book or Mormon however, your first source should be the Holy Bible which is the word of God, inspired by God.
God bless you Abdi and may you continue your search for Truth!
Harmony April