What do Mormons Believe about the Birth of Jesus

by
May 29, 2011

Question: What are Mormons view on the birth of Jesus?

Answer: The birth of Jesus Christ was a wonderful event. Prophets from both the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon prophesied the birth of the Savior. That night when the King of Heaven and Earth was born, it wasn’t in a palace but in a lowly stable. It was in this humble beginning that our Lord and Redeemer was born.

Like other Christian churches, we celebrate his birth, especially around Christmas time. Usually my family would read the Christmas story from the New Testament, in Luke 2. Sometimes while growing up, we would even act it out.

This link is a great little summary video of the Christmas Story.

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68 Responses to “What do Mormons Believe about the Birth of Jesus”

  1. Cindy
    I would agree that the Scriptures do set forth the sinful nature of man, if left to himself with no divine assistance. The Law given to Moses is written with that sinful man in mind. God places upon the earth those spirits that can only accept this type of law, where it is the only law given. Many aren’t even desiring that much.
    But there are some spirits desiring the greater things of love and life that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are teaching.
    Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ allows us to be perfect by giving the intent of our heart and our understanding their proper position in the issue rather than no position at all.
    Under the Law given to Moses it says that we must not commit murder. Yet suppose we see a person falling over a cliff and he has hold of a little girl, who is holding onto a plant. The plant is coming out and it looks like they both will die. You can’t get to the girl to save them both. But you can throw a rock at the man to release the girl that she will live and he will die, as he refuses to let go of her.
    If you do so are you guilty of sin? The Law given to Moses is specific. There are no exceptions given for this case.
    And that is what the law is about. It is a set of absolutes that God knows fit most of the time. But in this instance above they don’t fit.
    Yet if we don’t have the law this means we live by what set of rules? And this is where the Holy Ghost is essential. Without him we cannot live the gospel of Christ and leave the Law given to Moses.
    The Holy Ghost is necessary for changing that heart perspective. So that we have no more desire to do evil, but to do good continually. Also feeling the love of God is necessary in this. Firstly this requires an acceptance of just how close our relationship can become with God. If we come to see him as truly our father (which I realise takes some changes of thinking) we can begin to appreciate his love.
    As we apply faith and follow even those things we don’t really see to be right that God says are, we come to see that he is always right. All these things are part of that change that occurs within us.
    Just to be sure that you understand me correctly I will look at your question _ “I could see that given my belief that we are freed from the law through Christ, so without the law we are not able to sin, right?”
    We are only freed from the Law as our hearts change to become like his. And if they are then we have no disposition to do evil. Any act we make will only be with good intent regardless of what it is. Thus our righteous thinking has freed us from the law because we need no law to do what is right. We just want to do that which is good. The Holy Ghost can help us learn how to decide on that one.

  2. Cindy

    I’m sorry, but I truly don’t understand some of what you are saying…perhaps I am among those spirits who don’t get it.
    You said, “But there are some spirits desiring the greater things of love and life that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are teaching.”  Does that mean that there is a fundamental difference between you and I because I don’t desire the “spiritual things” and you do?
    You also said, “And that is what the law is about. It is a set of absolutes that God knows fit most of the time.”  So God isn’t smart enough to create rules that can cover all situations?
    And the Holy Ghost changes our heart perspective based on our acceptance of the fact that God is our literal Father?
    You said, “We are only freed from the Law as our hearts change to become like his. And if they are then we have no disposition to do evil. Any act we make will only be with good intent regardless of what it is” so if I steal a loaf of bread without any intention of hurting anyone, it is not a sin?
    All of this seems so dependent upon our own efforts to become righteous.  Where does the righteousness of Christ fit into this picture?  Aren’t we told that the only way to the Father is through Christ?  Not like Christ, but through Him?
    I’m sorry for the many questions, but I am really struggling with what you are saying here…
     

  3. I still can’t help but feel that the problem you are having with understanding the gospel is that you are attempting to treat it as you do the law. We still seem to be in a circular conversation. In stead of trying to understand what I’m saying you are trying to find flaws in it. This isn’t how you will come to perceive the love of God and his Christ.

    You’ve quoted me saying, “And that is what the law is about. It is a set of absolutes that God knows fit most of the time.” And then posed the question, “So God isn’t smart enough to create rules that can cover all situations?”

    So, rather than thinking about whether what I’m saying is true you are more interested in trying to find it false. Now I can defend that easily. But is that the point? What is the point of me conversing with you when you aren’t really focused on the love of God as a first priority?

    If the Law given to Moses was a perfect law then there would have been no need of a greater law to come. The fact that the Bible tells us that the Law of Moses was inadequate answers your question. That should have been obvious to you.

    Additionally I’ve quoted Isaiah praising Christ in that he doesn’t judge by the actions or words we say or do. Another clear indication that the Law has flaws.

    Christ stated that the Jews condemned innocent people by sticking to the word of it rather than its intent (demonstrating that such conflicts can occur).

    I have quoted to you an example of a person over the edge of a cliff. You couldn’t refute the truth of the example.

    So why are we bothering to go on with this conversation?

    You have also continued to quote Romans chapter 10 out of context. It doesn’t say that we should be seeking the righteousness of Christ. It says that we should be submitting ourselves to the righteousness of God.

    Anyway I don’t see any point in this continuing without any spirit of truth being sought by you.

    Your doctrine is a doctrine of dead cliches that have no heart meaning to you.

    I would call upon you to accept the true and living Christ and our loving, caring Father. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth. Enjoy it. Learn from it. And gain the greater happiness Christ promises to those who open their hearts to him.

  4. cindy

    It seems to be easier to you to blow me off than to answer my questions, and that is fine if it is your choice.  I will try to ask my questions more thoughtfully, but I hope you can admit that you bring your own perspective to this as much as I do.  We both tend to see things from our own point of view and that makes understanding difficult.  That is why I think the only way to find the truth is to seek Christ at the center of the gospel.
    With that in mind, I will try again. I completely agree with what you have said about the law of Moses in this statement, “If the Law given to Moses was a perfect law then there would have been no need of a greater law to come.”  And I see how you can feel as if I am treating your gospel as if it were a law, because I am.  Not THE law of Moses, but a new law which includes ordinances and requirements in order for us to achieve the forgiveness of our sins.  I don’t see the difference between being in bondage to the imperfect law of Moses or the imperfect law of Joseph Smith.  Both require works for forgiveness rather than asking us to rely on the righteousness of God, which was represented by Christ…sorry for the confusion.
    The problem with any set of laws is that they put us in a position in which we are trying to establish our own righteousness and that is in direct opposition to reliance on the righteousness of God.  If we can become righteous on our own how does that require reliance on Christ?
    In fact, our ability to keep the heart of the commandments, to love God and others, is made possible only as we receive complete forgiveness of our sins, see the story of the sinful woman in Luke 7.  If we are working toward our own forgiveness through the LDS process of repentance, isn’t it evident that we have not received forgiveness from Christ?

  5. Cindy

    I think I see where you are coming from. Also I can see that you have this idea of the gospel of Christ as including temple ceremonies as far as I’m concerned. You probably have it also including lots of side doctrines.

    And looking at it I can see that you feel I haven’t answered your questions and I feel I have.

    Now I can see you have this problem about needing Christ but obtaining personal perfection. One place where Protestant doctrine and that of the church segregates is that we know of many rewards rather than the, often used, simplistic version of just heaven and hell. I know some people who belong in that simplistic version of judgment: Those belonging in that heaven (extremely righteous people) and those in the other place. But most people don’t perfectly belong in either.

    Most Bibles take several different words and translate them as “hell.” Thus when saved from one hell you are saved from them all (is your perception). You find that it says works won’t save you from hell. So you conclude that works can’t help you get into heaven (where, you conclude, all are going who aren’t going to Gehenna).

    To understand LDS doctrine in this area requires you to lose that thinking. Only Christ can save us from the fire like feeling that comes from our past sins. There is no LDS doctrine of being saved from Gehenna by my righteous living. When I came to Christ in true repentance I didn’t say to him I’m a righteous person now so my sins are gone. I said, I’ve overcome the world through your instruction. And then begged him to remove my past sins. Here is the righteousness of Christ manifest. In that while still having sin in me he saved me from them that I had them no more.

    Let me say in regard the temple that the ordinances AREN’T additional to the rest(?) of the gospel. The temple ordinances are symbolic representations of teachings that God has to give us that not all are ready to hear. This includes a pointing to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to its teachings. The fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in both the NT and the BofM.

    There is the Law given to Moses, there is the gospel as given by Christ and then there are doctrines. When I say doctrines I mean such things as that Heavenly Father has a physical body. This isn’t the Law given to Moses nor is it the gospel as delivered by Christ. Its not that it is false. It is just not the gospel. The gospel is about having our hearts in tune with God.

  6. cindy

    Doug,
    Sorry for my delayed response…I was on a family vacation.  And thank you for your thoughtful reply.  I do have a perception of ordinances and temple work as required for salvation…mostly gained through discussions with my LDS friends, but also from the lds.org site:
    “In order to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father, each of us must receive the ordinances necessary for salvation. Elder Boyd K. Packer said:
    “Ordinances and covenants become our credentials for admission into His presence. To worthily receive them is the quest of a lifetime; to keep them thereafter is the challenge of mortality.”
    I appreciate your understanding that I struggle with the idea of heaven and hell as two distinct, opposing and eternal endings.  Here are a couple of verses that shape my belief: 
    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
    and “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”
    This does cause me to have a “simplistic version of judgement” in which only the righteous can abide with God and all the others cannot.  But isn’t that idea supported by LDS scripture as well?
    “for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven”alma 11
    It sounds like you believe that too, right?  And I do struggle with the idea that we must attain our own righteousness in order to attain salvation, so it is wonderful to hear you say that “There is no LDS doctrine of being saved from Gehenna by my righteous living.”  But then you stated that ” I’ve overcome the world through your (Christ’s)  instruction.”  Isn’t overcoming the world the same as attaining righteousness?  I mean, aren’t you saying that overcoming the world is overcoming sin?  You said you haven’t sinned for years, right?  And so then once you became sinless you were able to ask Christ to forgive your former sins…is that right?
    That seems like you are being saved by your own righteousness, and I get the same feeling when I read much of the information from lds sources:
    “Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness, and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men.”
    “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God”
    If the gospel is that we are to overcome sin through Christ’s instruction in order to be able to ask for our former sins to be erased, how does that match with simply having our hearts in tune with God?
     
     

  7. Cindy
     
    You still seem to be holding onto this idea of only 2 states. You’ve quoted that which will occur at Christ’s second coming. The wicked will all die and the righteous will all be called up to reign in heaven. Great. So when Christ has his second coming just before the milenium no one will be left alive.  The Scriptures tell us that people will continue to be born and die all throughout the milenium. So who are these people?

    You’ve quote about God who will spue deserters out of his mouth, and prefering the wicked. This makes at least 3 groups.

    In regard works; even in Protestantism there is a requirement for a person to accept the name of Jesus and to accept him as their savior. These things are works. And that is the point you are quoting to me in regard my beliefs. If you don’t do these works you go to hell, according to Protestantism. What you are really arguing is the amount of works required and what they are.

    The book of First John states over and over that a saved person isn’t sinning anymore. He clarifies this by pointing out that they have overcome the sins of the world and aren’t practicing them anymore.

    So you can debate over whether the person gave up sin just before baptism or just after, but it really is to what will be observed. The person WILL remain sinless thereafter unless they become one to be spued out of God’s mouth.

    I’m having trouble working out how to approach these answers, as you keep moving ground. There are 2 aspects to this conversation, what the heart feels and what the head says. I go for your heart and you suddenly block it and go for your head. So I go for the head and you go for the heart. You see the Scriptures have doctrines both ways – Law / Gospel. But one is a stumbling block to the other.

    You talk of the struggle to obtain your own righteousness. It doesn’t work that way. You have to just let it happen. You are using your head. Stop that! Use your heart. Let God’s love work in you. It isn’t you that can bring righteousness to you. It is Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

    If I wish to be a great carpenter I will become one by coming to love carpentry, having belief in my instructors and faith in the carpenters I’m working with. I won’t get it by just aiming to be a great carpenter.

    In regard your last question; Our hearts become in tune with God as we come to know him and follow him.

    I constantly seem to be answering the same question here. So I’ll write it another way.

    It ISN’T by my righteousness that I get into the kingdom of heaven. It is because I enjoy righteousness that I get into the kingdom of heaven. That, and of course, Jesus Christ removing my past sins along with the guidance of the Spirit.

  8. Patty

    Doug,
    I am trying to follow the conversation w/ you and Cindy.  Hopefully you can spell things out for me (like you did in the last paragraph of the above post – on an elementary level), as I am finding it difficult to follow your thoughts. 
     
    I believe I understand what you are saying about not sinning (1 John). 
    1.Do I understand you correctly; are you saying that a person can not sin after baptism into the Mormon church?  Do you believe baptism is the same as being born again (that is what most Mormon’s say they believe – and I get the sense that you might not hold to some of the more commonly held beliefs of the lay Mormon). 
    2. Am I understanding you correctly; that you are righteous because you enjoy righteousness, Jesus taking away past sins, and the Spirit?  If so, would you mind clarifying for me; how can a person be righteous? 
    3. Finally, do you believe the Book of Mormon is the most correct book and a person can get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book?
    Thanks

  9. Patty

    1. Baptism, while important, is only just a symbol that we must do so as to begin to learn the meaning of it. A person won’t sin after true baptism of the heart, because it is against their nature to do so.

    While as LDS we believe the same basic fundamentals, LDS individually believe many different things even in our perception of those fundamentals.

    Being born again is symbolized within the baptism process and must be truly achieved.

    2. Yes, I chose not to sin because I abhor evil. And I chose to do good because it brings light and life to my heart.

    To clarify: There is a difference between being righteous now and having always been righteous. I have not always been sin free. I have sinned many times in my life. But I came to a point where I ceased sinning anymore.

    Great! We may say. But what of the sins I had already committed. They weighed me down in my conscience. I was still a sinner because the sins I had committed were still there in my heart. So I needed a Savior to remove the bad feeling that was in me. To make me one with God again (as at birth). Jesus Christ is that Savior.

    In answer to the last question under “2.” I don’t normally walk around using the term “righteous” about myself. Let’s just say that I do not sin anymore and that Christ has washed me of the sins I had committed. If you find that righteous be that to you.

    3. It must be remembered (and its a shame all those quoting this statement don’t) that Joseph Smith wasn’t including the then unfinished volumes _ Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. I always ponder this point in hearing the quote.

  10. Patty

    Doug,
    Thank you for your response that I could understand. 
    I am fascinated; I have never before heard anyone (LDS or not) claim they have not sinned for years.  I am interested in your beliefs about this and how it ties into some of your LDS scriptures.  (Since this is a first for me, I am under the assumption that the majority of the LDS readers of this blog would not hold to the same doctrine/belief of current sinlessness?)
     
    1. When you say you are now sinless, does that mean you:  a)are now able to keep the ten commandments (because of your new nature)?  or b)something else? 
     
    In your belief, how does God define sin?
     
    Does this also mean that you have not had to repent for years too?
     
    2. When you say, “So I needed a Savior to remove the bad feeling that was in me…”  I don’t know why would you need a Savior to remove a bad feeling?  I know before any relationship I had w/ Jesus, my feelings could change from bad to good by adjusting my thoughts.   Is it your feelings that separate you from God, or your sins?  My guess is that your sins separate you from God, and your feelings simply alert you to that.
     
    At this point, I am not  sure if I have the same understanding of “righteous” as you.  What do you think; is a person is righteous because they have been able to stop sinning and their past sins are cleansed?
     
    3. So yes? You believe in not only the Book of Mormon, but the D&C and Pearl of Great Price.  Do you think they are dead on accurate,  inerrant or infallible? (Is is safe to assume you think the Bible is God’s word as far as it is translated correctly?)

  11. Patty

    You have asked _
    <i>”(Since this is a first for me, I am under the assumption that the majority of the LDS readers of this blog would not hold to the same doctrine/belief of current sinlessness?)”</i>

    Yes. It isn’t taught on a basic level. I haven’t come across any that confess to knowing it either.

    Your point 1. b.

    A simplistic definition of sin is given by John when he states that sin is the transgression of the Law [of Moses].

    Sin is when a person out of evil intent, does or causes to be done, evil to another person.

    Yes, I haven’t had to repent for years. For which I am grateful to the Holy Ghost, Heavenly Father and Jesus Chist for their instruction.
    Your point 2.

    It is impossible to explain feelings when there is no standard to judge them by. But it was a rotten feeling that creates a blackness in you. You can look in, using your spirit eyes, and see what is like a thick black sludge. It was a feeling that stayed with me and never gave respite.

    You talk of sins as if they are separate from our feelings. From the Book of Mormon we find it directly stated that sins are like an unquenchable fire within our being, caused by our own sense of true justice (Mosiah 2:38).

    As to who’s righteous, I suppose you are right that theoretically I’m righteous. But I just think of becoming like Heavenly Father; and there is a longggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg way to go.

    3. I read the Scriptures and use the Spirit in understanding it. It must be remembered that overall the Book of Mormon is an Old Testament, made by a more enlightened people than the Jews. Yet they were pre-Christ in knowledge. Some brilliant stuff in there. But also they were learning that which we already know. At the beginning of the volume we are informed that it probably contains errors, even by the writer of the last book. Then there was the problems in copies and printing. Then there was the fact that Joseph Smith was interpreting it with a Protestant mind.

    The D&C and PofGP also contains problems in some areas. They were also given to a less enlightened people. They were advancing in knowledge, but it still is a large jump for people of other faiths or no faith at all, to move into higher doctrines. As we know most of the gold plates are yet to be interpreted. And some of the hieroglyphics in the Book of Abraham. So we just have the backward lot.

    In saying that, however, it is amazing what is actually under our noses, but unseen unless guided by the Spirit.

    So, to put it plainly, I read Scripture as if it is true, and wait for the feelings of truth or error (or unenlightened) to help me know what is right.

  12. Jan

    I just want to jump in quick here with a doctrinal clarification:
    Doug’s attitude towards sin is not representative of LDS attitude toward sin.  We know that we all sin either in doing the wrong things or not doing the right things Every Day.  We need to repent every day.  We need to partake of the sacrament (symbols of Christ’s crucifixion and atonement) every week to help us repent and recommit to our covenants.  Hugh Nibley (who isn’t a church authority but is a great church scholar) said “The wicked are those who have stopped repenting”.
    What matters most is the direction our heart is turned–if we still do dumb things (i.e. get frustrated with my kids every single day) but every day we sincerely repent and try to do better the next time, then we are on the right path.  Sincerity and Intent are the keys. 
    If our heart is turned towards ourselves or the world, we have stopped repenting and think we are a law unto ourselves.  This is not a good place to be.
    Anyway, i don’t know you, Doug, and I’m not saying anything about your situation–that is absolutely between you and God.  I just wanted to clarify what the doctrine of the LDS Church is and what it’s members believe.  And if anyone is reading this thinking that becoming a Mormon makes it possible to never sin again–sorry, you’ll still be human.  But a Mormon Human is a very good thing to be.

  13. Patty

    Jan,
    Thank you for your clarification.  I pretty much knew Doug’s position was not mainstream, as he readily admits, but it is always good to ask instead of assume.
     
    Doug,
    1. Sin…  I found a verse the other day in the Book of Mormon.  It sounds as if you might disagree w/ either Joseph Smith or King Benjamin when it says, “And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.  But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish…” (Mosiah 4:29-30)
     
    Also, “For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God…” (Alma 12:14)
     
    I only bring this to your attention out of care and concern; that as you evaluate your heart with the help and guidance of God, you can have a truthful measure according to God’s standards.  Perhaps if repentance is in order, you can have joyful assurance that you can “have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”  You can also be comforted that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I [Paul] am chief.”    
     
    2.  Feelings…“It is impossible to explain feelings when there is no standard to judge them by.”  I fully agree.  One thing I love about feelings is that they are a wonderful measure of my thoughts.  I read a small portion on your blog and understand that you put a lot of weight in a person’s thought life (because that is what proceeds the act).
     
    However, I did not find them to be useful in determining truth.  For example, if we have several people using their feelings to evaluate if something is true, then if it really is true, people’s feelings should line up w/ each other.  When they don’t line up, this only measures the person, not the thing being tested or evaluated.  A person can’t really exalt themselves above another by claiming their spiritual eyes are clearer than another’s when we don’t know their hearts or how God views their heart.  Perhaps this is why there are so many sincere and valiant followers of Joseph Smith who belong to the many, many splinter groups of the church he started.  Many from these different sects of Mormonism will speak w/ utmost conviction and even tears about how they know the Book of Mormon is true and how their particular prophet is the true and living prophet.  Plus, our own feelings can actually deceive us.  If we only felt blackness at what was evil, then Satan would have no method to deceive us.  Satan and the lies he tells can appear and feel good, like a wolf in sheep’s clothing; even Satan can appear as an angel of light.  God was so kind and merciful to warn us of this: “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
     
    I heard a man give a fascinating speech the other day.  He was raised LDS, and also relied on his feelings for truth. Little by little throughout his entire life, he would get little messages and feelings where he was convinced they came from God; burning bosom and all.  He lived his life by these convictions, and by the tender mercies of God, his life came crashing in on him.  He was able to realize he was a false prophet and was able to have a conviction that led to repentance.  I can give you a link to this story if you request it.
     
    3.  Speaking of feelings and the Book of Mormon….  Did you know that a man named Christopher Nemelka claims to have translated the sealed portion of the plates?  He has a small following who also claim to know he is true and the translation is true due to the feelings or manifestaion of the Spirit.  However, the presidency of the LDS church deny his claim.

  14.  Jan

    Thanks for your thoughts and concern. The doctrine of the church is that we believe that all teaching anything must teach from the Standard Works. As the then president Harold B. Lee stated, “they are the standard by which we judge.” I can, with absolute ease, demonstrate my point from Scripture a multitude of times over. However I’m not allowed to for the degree you would require. But you are correct in presenting that almost all members believe something else in regard sin. Patty has seen that I have declared this. Let’s just leave it at that, OK?

    Patty

    1. My beliefs are in complete harmony with the 3 Scriptures you have quoted from.

    Mosiah 4; my definition makes the multitude of ways sin is possible as being endless.

    Alma 12; verse 13 demonstrates that this is only if a person hardens their heart.

    Paul; his statement is relevant to Stephan and the imprisoned Saints.

    The Spirit may guide an extreme right wing person to think a bit more left wing and an extreme left wing person to think a bit more right wing. The inspiration is different, but each is correct for that person.

    2. As an LDS I believe in eternal laws. This means that anything God can do we can do the same if we become the same as he is spiritually etc. In other words the kernel for all that he is lies within us also. Therefore the ability to see a person’s heart lies within us if we nurture the attributes associated with that gift. I have looked into the hearts of thousands (single women generally) (including myself). I can go as deeply as I wish to. It is obviously a gift from God as it is always accurate (I’ve done extensive testing and used it for well over a decade).

    You’ve said _
    <i>”I read a small portion on your blog and understand that you put a lot of weight in a person’s thought life (because that is what proceeds the act).
     
    However, I did not find them to be useful in determining truth.”</i>

    The wind blown where it wishes. And you can hear the sound of it. But you can’t tell where it came from, and where it is going. So is everyone that is led by the Spirit. Jn 3:8

    Satan doesn’t come along with darkness when he hopes to deceive us. But if you saw him you would see a spirit body in darkness. There is no light in him. Many have misinterpreted the statement you quote. 2 Cor 11 talks of men transforming themselves into apostles. Not by plastic surgery, but by claiming to be. The word used about Satan in the next verse is the same root word. Satan doesn’t give off light, he claims to be an angel of light.

    As to those who may or may not be deceived I hold judgment on those whom I’ve never met or heard, unless otherwise instructed of the Spirit.

  15. Cindy

    Thank you all for contributing to this conversation.  I find it interesting, and somewhat frustrating, that there can be two such differing versions of LDS doctrine from two very obviously sincere people. 
    I can see Doug’s point about the requirement to become sinless in order to receive forgiveness when I read “Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;” DC 1:32, and D&C 58:43 “Thus, when “a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” or the words of Joseph Smith when he said, Daily transgression and daily repentance is not … pleasing in the sight of God” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 148)
    But I understand Jan’s recognition that we are sinners by nature and her reliance on the Hugh Nibley quote to allow her a chance to repent for her continued sin in order to gain forgiveness.
    It is this kind of confusion that has drawn me even closer to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross as the ONLY means of true forgiveness, as Patty says, “You can also be comforted that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I [Paul] am chief.”
     

  16. cindy

    Hi All,
    I tried to post this once before and I haven’t seen it appear yet, so I am trying again…please forgive me if it double posts…
     
    Thank you all for contributing to this conversation.  I find it interesting, and somewhat frustrating, that there can be two such differing versions of LDS doctrine from two very obviously sincere people. 
    I can see Doug’s point about the requirement to become sinless in order to receive forgiveness when I read “Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;” DC 1:32, and D&C 58:43 “Thus, when “a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” or the words of Joseph Smith when he said, Daily transgression and daily repentance is not … pleasing in the sight of God” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 148)
    But I understand Jan’s recognition that we are sinners by nature and her reliance on the Hugh Nibley quote to allow her a chance to repent for her continued sin in order to gain forgiveness.
    It is this kind of confusion that has drawn me even closer to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross as the ONLY means of true forgiveness, as Patty says, “You can also be comforted that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I [Paul] am chief.”

  17. only mormons would “require” me to give my email. you know i have a platoon sgt that is mormon and he makes us wakes up at 0430 in the morning every day while we are deployed. what i would like to know is why all these mormons so robotic? why are all of them “yes” men? where in the book of mormon does it say that all of you have to be so lame?

  18. i r baboon

    You are lucky to have a sgt that is teaching you how to stay alive in a war zone. If you are to be attacked, early morning is the ideal time according to statistics (along with as evening settles).