Comments on: The Saved Little Toaster http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/ "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men." -Joseph Smith Mon, 06 Sep 2010 05:34:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Thaddeus http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-727 Thaddeus Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:13:04 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-727 That's an interesting and insightful question, Drew. Let's talk about it. Here are my initial thoughts: First, what do you mean by "glorify God?" My understanding of that phrase is influenced by a revelation Joseph Smith received as a preface to Genesis 1. It is found in our <em>Pearl of Great Price</em>, and is basically an exchange Moses had with God in which Moses asks the question "Why creation?" God responds with this phrase: "For behold, this is my work and my <strong>glory</strong> -- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/1/39#39" rel="nofollow">Moses 1:39</a>, my emphasis). Moses then views the creation of earth and the scene in the Garden of Eden, etc., as accounted in Genesis. I find it very interesting that God's work (i.e. His occupation) and his glory (what He loves to do; His passion) is to bring to pass immortal men who willingly receive eternal life (eternal life, we view as Godly life; eternal in quality not just in duration). So what must we do as His beloved children to "glorify Him?" We contribute ourselves to His glory. We learn our duties, follow His directions, and enter covenants to receive eternal life. It's a step-by-step process that we come to earth to learn, and it means gradual growth. In short, our growth is what pleases Him most. When we figure something out and repent and change, this gives him glory. Drew, does this help you understand where we're coming from? How does your understanding of "glorify God" compare with what I described? That’s an interesting and insightful question, Drew. Let’s talk about it. Here are my initial thoughts:

First, what do you mean by “glorify God?” My understanding of that phrase is influenced by a revelation Joseph Smith received as a preface to Genesis 1. It is found in our Pearl of Great Price, and is basically an exchange Moses had with God in which Moses asks the question “Why creation?” God responds with this phrase: “For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” (Moses 1:39, my emphasis). Moses then views the creation of earth and the scene in the Garden of Eden, etc., as accounted in Genesis.

I find it very interesting that God’s work (i.e. His occupation) and his glory (what He loves to do; His passion) is to bring to pass immortal men who willingly receive eternal life (eternal life, we view as Godly life; eternal in quality not just in duration). So what must we do as His beloved children to “glorify Him?” We contribute ourselves to His glory. We learn our duties, follow His directions, and enter covenants to receive eternal life. It’s a step-by-step process that we come to earth to learn, and it means gradual growth.

In short, our growth is what pleases Him most. When we figure something out and repent and change, this gives him glory.

Drew, does this help you understand where we’re coming from? How does your understanding of “glorify God” compare with what I described?

]]> By: Drew http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-726 Drew Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:53:35 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-726 I have a question regarding what you said. I'm not very familiar with what mormons believe on many topics but you said that "our purpose on earth is growth". Is that sound LDS doctrine? I am currently in the middle of a John Piper book that truthfully and successfully argues that our SOLE purpose is to glorify God. Its not about us, its about HIM. I do want to gain an understanding of your beliefs and in no way intend to be offensive, I hope I don't come across that way. I have a question regarding what you said. I’m not very familiar with what mormons believe on many topics but you said that “our purpose on earth is growth”. Is that sound LDS doctrine? I am currently in the middle of a John Piper book that truthfully and successfully argues that our SOLE purpose is to glorify God. Its not about us, its about HIM.

I do want to gain an understanding of your beliefs and in no way intend to be offensive, I hope I don’t come across that way.

]]> By: Dave http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-714 Dave Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:42:06 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-714 Thaddeus, I'm always trying to find a good analogy to explain how we view the cooperation of grace and works. I like this one a lot, thanks. Thaddeus,

I’m always trying to find a good analogy to explain how we view the cooperation of grace and works. I like this one a lot, thanks.

]]> By: Thaddeus http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-705 Thaddeus Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:52:05 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-705 Nick, you're correct. Analogies always tend to absurdity around the edges. My analogy is only intended to illustrate the fact that my salvation is accomplished through both my outstretched hand and the Savior's outstretched hand. He does the heavy lifting, and I must be a willing, even an eager participant in my salvation. (see <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/philip/2/12#12" rel="nofollow">Philippians 2:12</a>) <i>The common thread is that the toast can be made by your hand alone</i> I hope my article didn't give you this impression. That is exactly the opposite of the point I was trying to make. Nick, you’re correct. Analogies always tend to absurdity around the edges. My analogy is only intended to illustrate the fact that my salvation is accomplished through both my outstretched hand and the Savior’s outstretched hand. He does the heavy lifting, and I must be a willing, even an eager participant in my salvation. (see Philippians 2:12)

The common thread is that the toast can be made by your hand alone

I hope my article didn’t give you this impression. That is exactly the opposite of the point I was trying to make.

]]> By: Bret http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-703 Bret Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:51:56 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-703 You also don't need toast to live, but that isn't the point of the metaphor. The point is that Christ provides the only means whereby we can become clean to return to our God. It still falls to us to accept His atonement for us by understanding and keeping His gospel which must be done by each individual. I cannot follow Christ for you nor you for me. You also don’t need toast to live, but that isn’t the point of the metaphor. The point is that Christ provides the only means whereby we can become clean to return to our God. It still falls to us to accept His atonement for us by understanding and keeping His gospel which must be done by each individual. I cannot follow Christ for you nor you for me.

]]> By: Nick http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-701 Nick Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:33:50 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-701 But your brother doesn't have to be the means by which you get the toaster. You could buy it yourself, win it in a contest, find it on the street, or even build it. You don't even need a toaster - you could cook bread many other ways. The common thread, however, is that the toast can be made by your hand alone, and this interpretation does not sync with Evangelical Christianity or Mormonism. But your brother doesn’t have to be the means by which you get the toaster. You could buy it yourself, win it in a contest, find it on the street, or even build it. You don’t even need a toaster – you could cook bread many other ways. The common thread, however, is that the toast can be made by your hand alone, and this interpretation does not sync with Evangelical Christianity or Mormonism.

]]> By: Danosaur http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-684 Danosaur Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:30:10 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-684 I really like both the toaster and the light switch analogies. I have also gotten this question from many Christian friends, and the fact that works and grace are mutually exclusive to them has baffled me. As I have pondered it, I realized that it stems from a misunderstanding of the Atonement, and what it means to <i>access</i> it. It reminds me of a talk the mission president gave in my ward last year. He had visited with a very Christian man and explained some of our beliefs. He asked the man the question, "What does the Atonement mean in your life?" The man answered, "Well, Jesus died for my sins." The mission president asked again, "Yes, but what does that mean <i>in your life?</i>" The man had no answer because he had never thought about it that way before. The better we understand the Atonement, we understand its infinite redeeming power as well as our obligation to access it -- through our works, or, put another way, through repentance, since our works distilled are really a means of changing our natural selves to be more Christlike. I really like both the toaster and the light switch analogies. I have also gotten this question from many Christian friends, and the fact that works and grace are mutually exclusive to them has baffled me. As I have pondered it, I realized that it stems from a misunderstanding of the Atonement, and what it means to access it. It reminds me of a talk the mission president gave in my ward last year. He had visited with a very Christian man and explained some of our beliefs. He asked the man the question, “What does the Atonement mean in your life?” The man answered, “Well, Jesus died for my sins.” The mission president asked again, “Yes, but what does that mean in your life?” The man had no answer because he had never thought about it that way before. The better we understand the Atonement, we understand its infinite redeeming power as well as our obligation to access it — through our works, or, put another way, through repentance, since our works distilled are really a means of changing our natural selves to be more Christlike.

]]> By: Bill Evans http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/10/the-saved-little-toaster/comment-page-1/#comment-683 Bill Evans Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:11:03 +0000 http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/?p=1978#comment-683 Good analogy. I have often used the analogy of the light switch -- the mechanical effort I have to expend in flipping even the most stubborn of switches is <b>nothing</b> in comparison to the comparatively infinite amount of power put out by the electric company (think hundreds of thousands of gallons of water per second flowing through turbines many times the size of the largest house you would ever seriously hope to own), or even the amount of power the light bulb itself is putting out. (Anyone who's tried human power to light a single 60W bulb with a bicycle-powered turbine will know what I mean -- all I think I ever got up to was a weak 10W spark or so.) In the end, however, I think that we all realize that the power of the Atonement is so much more infinitely beyond anything we could ever achieve. In Brother Robinson's <a href="http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/transcripts/devotionals/2006_04_11_hansen.htm" rel="nofollow">"Parable of the Bicycle"</a>, the price on the bicycle would not be the $100 or so that a normal bicycle costs, but more like $10^(10^(10^(10^(10^10)))) (plus a little more). Trying to work out forgiveness for our own sins is so completely beyond our grasp that even the most pious person ever would be forever shut out of the presence of the Divine (See <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/9" rel="nofollow">2 Nephi 9</a>). Like the hymn goes, "Not the labors of my hands, could fill all Thy laws demands. Could my zeal no respite know, could my tears forever flow, all for sin could not atone. Thou must save, and Thou alone." ("Rock of Ages", <a href="http://www.lds.org/churchmusic/detailmusicPlayer/index.html?searchlanguage=1&searchcollection=1&searchseqstart=111&searchsubseqstart=%20&searchseqend=111&searchsubseqend=ZZZ" rel="nofollow">Hymns #111</a>) Good analogy. I have often used the analogy of the light switch — the mechanical effort I have to expend in flipping even the most stubborn of switches is nothing in comparison to the comparatively infinite amount of power put out by the electric company (think hundreds of thousands of gallons of water per second flowing through turbines many times the size of the largest house you would ever seriously hope to own), or even the amount of power the light bulb itself is putting out. (Anyone who’s tried human power to light a single 60W bulb with a bicycle-powered turbine will know what I mean — all I think I ever got up to was a weak 10W spark or so.)

In the end, however, I think that we all realize that the power of the Atonement is so much more infinitely beyond anything we could ever achieve. In Brother Robinson’s “Parable of the Bicycle”, the price on the bicycle would not be the $100 or so that a normal bicycle costs, but more like $10^(10^(10^(10^(10^10)))) (plus a little more). Trying to work out forgiveness for our own sins is so completely beyond our grasp that even the most pious person ever would be forever shut out of the presence of the Divine (See 2 Nephi 9). Like the hymn goes, “Not the labors of my hands, could fill all Thy laws demands. Could my zeal no respite know, could my tears forever flow, all for sin could not atone. Thou must save, and Thou alone.” (“Rock of Ages”, Hymns #111)

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