Let’s stop worrying so much about who or what someone is, just love them anyway! If you think they need “saving” or guidance, then pray for them. I recommend one prays “give so-and-so the guidance they need, and bless me with the guidance I need.” – not “make them believe what I believe”. God knows what every single person needs, He’ll handle it! Just raise a person’s name up to Him, and He’ll take care of the rest.

I don’t believe that the after-life, Heaven, or whatever you may believe is segregated into religions anyway.

Just love each other and let God handle the rest. He’s really good at it!

God bless you all.

That’s the debate within Mormonism. Some believe in a spirit “birth”, others believe (like Joseph taught) that spirits are uncreated and eternal. I line up with the latter, who believe that there was never a time when the Son was not. Like the Book of Mormon title page makes clear: “Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God”. Those who believe in a beginning moment of self-awareness, I believe, go beyond a sure foundation.

Likewise, those who talk about an infinite regression of Gods before God the Father go beyond a sure foundation and into a realm of speculation. A good friend of mine once observed that we Mormons like to dwell on what’s “possible”, but he wished we would focus more on what’s “probable”. I agree. Reading through the Sermon in the Grove in its entirety shows that Joseph Smith is clearly teaching about a “Head God”, which seems to contradict this idea of an infinite regression of Gods. (But traditional ideas still persist).

You really need to read “My Take on Joseph Smith’s King Follet Sermon”, including the comments: http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-take-on-joseph-smiths-king-follet.html

I can certainly appreciate what you’re saying about wanting people to understand that there are differences between your branch of Christianity and ours. I’m glad that we’ve gotten to the root of the issue. Because it certainly is a valid point, and ironically enough, no one understands that better than the Mormons, who, let me tell you, spend a good deal of effort trying not to be mistaken for the fundamentalist Mormon polygamist sects, who are generally considered a “branch” of Mormonism (not unlike how Mormonism is a “branch” of Christianity, or how Christianity is a “branch” of Monotheism).

In the case of the other Mormon sects, we wouldn’t care what they called themselves, just as long as everyone understands that we are not the same.

Which, let me also tell you, is a very real issue with the word “Mormon”. Mormonism is so uncommon and young in the world, that I would venture to say that most strangers I meet don’t understand that there are different sects. I can’t tell you how many times while knocking on doors as a missionary (or in my life) that people have literally thought I belonged to an FLDS sect, and practiced polygamy, because I called myself a “Mormon”.

What has never happened to me, however, is being mistaken for an Evangelical Christian or a Catholic or an Episcopalian or a Lutheran. When people ask me what religion I am, I say “Mormon” or “LDS”, because that gives the most information about me. (I imagine “Restorationist Christian” or “Christian” or “Monotheist” would be 100% correct as well, but you see how it doesn’t quite fully answer the question.) You needn’t worry about our purposely trying to be mistaken for any sort of Christian other than our own. We flaunt our differences. We believe that we are unique in the Christian world–we have more scriptures! Additional revelation!

Here we may come to the root of the issue. If I’m in the United States, and I ask somewhat what religion they are, and they say “Christian”, I assume something like “nondenominational Christian” or “Evangelical Christian” or “born-again Christian” or something along those lines. I don’t assume that because I think those are the only “true Christians”, just because everyone else refers to themselves more specifically: Catholic, Presbyterian, Jehovah’s Witness, Greek Orthodox, Mormon, etc.

(Incidentally, when I lived in Jerusalem, I assumed that people who answered “Christian” were Greek Orthodox, and when I was in Egypt, people who answered “Christian” were probably Coptic.)

Which–and this is what I’ve been trying to get at– is probably why the only people I have ever heard take issue with my classifying my religion as “Christian” are those who do not generally feel the need to classify themselves more specifically. Namely, Evangelical Christians (who, I’ve been told, don’t usually use the word “Evangelical” to refer to themselves amongst themselves).

So, Kimo, I’m interested to know if Evangelical Christians being mistaken for Mormons, or vice versa, is a common problem, in your experience?

I wouldn’t say Christians are out to prevent people from considering the LDS Church. Our great country is founded upon the notion of freedom of religion, so prevent is probably too strong a word. I haven’t noticed anyone campaigning against the Mormon church anywhere that I have ever lived. I also can not remember one sermon from the thousands and thousands of sermons I’ve heard that has ever mentioned or addressed Mormonism. From my personal experience, I haven’t seen anyone out campaigning against Mormonism.

The theological differences between Mormonism and Christianity are very big regarding the central issues of the faith (God, Jesus). The biggest difference is that Mormon’s accept “scripture” other than the Bible and consider the Bible flawed and inferior to the book of Mormon, DC, Pearl, etc. All other sects of Christianity follow the Bible as their authority. The differences are outlined pretty well in this link:

http://wri.leaderu.com/mormonism/jesus.html

Speaking for myself, I would want those who are seeking for God to know that there is a difference between LDS and Christianity. I would want them to know this out of Love and a deep desire for them to know God and be part of his family. I certainly don’t know how God will treat Mormon’s other than what has already been written in the Bible about the Gnostics and Judiasers who taught extra stuff that was not in the Bible and contradicted it with respect to who Jesus is. The bottom line is that any concern is out of a deep love for others and wanting them to discover the truth.

Also speaking for myself, I love Mormons but feel a natural concern for them also. The many Mormons I know are truly wonderful loving people who are kind and generous. They probably have the same concern for me if they have deeply held beliefs in Mormonism.

Thanks for mentioning Saint Irenaeus. I looked him up on Wikipedia because I know nothing about him. It seems to me that he was very much against the Gnostics who held beliefs similar to deification. The Bible speaks very clearly against the Gnostics.

Thanks for clarifying that. I also read your blog and found it very interesting and well written. That is a great family pic & an adorable family. I also have two wonderful girls.

As far as the word “created” goes, I’d like to use it to mean when we become self-aware entities or “offspring” spiritual or otherwise (regardless of whether one believes that matter or energy are eternal or created out of nothing). If Mormon’s view Jesus as the spiritual offspring of God and his self-aware state of being has a beginning, then I’d conclude that Mormon’s believe Jesus was created/shaped as a spiritual offspring of God and there is a beginning to his self-aware existence. Christians follow the biblical teaching that Jesus is God and has existed as an all powerful, all knowing, never changing self-aware deity with no beginning and no end. This is drastically different than the Mormon conception of God and Jesus as I understand it.

As I understand it, Mormon’s believe that God the Father was once a spirit child of another God before he became exalted. Is this correct? If so, who was the Father of our “God the Father”? How far back does this progression stretch? Does this mean that our “God the Father” is subject to his Father & Mother?

By the way, here is a link that I just found that has a fair discussion on what we’ve been discussing:

http://wri.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/mormon-god.html

I think that’s exactly what the debate is really about, Kimo. Thank you. The motivation I perceive for excluding Mormons from Christianity is more about preventing people from considering the LDS Church as an option. Our motivation for inclusion in Christianity is the opposite: to prevent people from flippantly dismissing us.

So why do evangelical Christians not want their friends even to look at Mormonism? Is it really about a doctrinal divide? Sure, there are important differences, but the Christian umbrella has historically included a wide field of mutually exclusive beliefs. (The doctrine of deification — the issue you brought up, Kimo — is at least as old and as Christian as Saint Irenaeus from the 2nd century AD). Plus, I don’t see dry, abstract theology driving a person to campaign so vigorously against a church. Maybe if we killed babies under a new moon every year or something…

Kimo, you’ve read the Book of Mormon. You probably know several Latter-day Saints. What is it about us that puts a pastor so ill at ease that he’d want to warn his congregation to stay away?

Please see “My Take on Joseph Smith’s King Follet Sermon”:
http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-take-on-joseph-smiths-king-follet.html

Actually, Kimo, you’re a little under-informed about the nuances of Mormon thought, here. Joseph Smith actually taught that NO ONE is “created” out of nothing–that we’re all co-eternal with God. The biggest difference between LDS Christians and Traditional Christians may very well be this LDS rejection out of creation ex nihilo. I just want you to know that it doesn’t quite compute for you refer to LDS thought about Jesus (or us for that matter) as “created” beings.

The term “Christian” is important during evangelism & when people decide what local church to attend. Just as Mormons do not accept Christians as Latter Day Saints and feel that Catholics/Protestants/etc. are in apostacy, many Christians feel that Mormons have introduced additional writings and theology that are not consistent with fundamental Christian beliefs and don’t want people to confuse the two. Probably more evangelicals feel this way because they seem to have a stronger desire to evangelize & reach out to others?

The keys differences that seem to separate Mormons and Christians comes down to who they say Jesus is and who they say God is. For example, how can worthy Mormon males become Gods in the afterlife when God already said that before him no God was formed, nor will there be any Gods formed after him (Isaiah 43:10)? Mormons believe in a plurality of Gods in the universe & Christians believe in one God over all of creation who has no beginning and no end. Christians believe that Jesus has also existed eternally and is co-equal with God the Father and Mormons believe he is one of Gods created sons. If God was once just a man who progressed to becoming a God, how do you explain Psalm 90:2: “…even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God”?

The link you gave had a much better thought out piece on this issue, however I still find that it requires a big stretch of reason and there are many holes. The biggest “hole” not really addressed is why Joseph Smith would copy over transcriptural errors if he was divinely guided. It just doesn’t make sense.

I have read the book of Mormon because I want to be informed and understanding. I appreciated your sincere seeking of God and you seem like a great guy. You should try out some of the dramatized audio bibles in NIV or more modern translations . . . they are awesome.