Comments on: What Do Mormons Believe? – Becoming Gods and Ruling Planets

By: cindy

cindy — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 23:51:21 +0000

Thanks Thaddeus, those are interesting articles.
I see that Joseph might have been trying to draw a parallel between himself and Paul from 1 Corinthians, but if that is true, I think he missed the point. Paul begins his entire discussion with this, “we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles”, and then goes on to describe how some were trying to discredit the gospel by discrediting him. So he agreed! In fact, he said, “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise”.

Paul then goes on to say that “Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. What anyone else dares to boast about–I am speaking as a fool–I also dare to boast about. If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.” and “If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.” His boasting is designed to emphasize the contrast between his own weaknesses and the powerful gospel of Christ.
Joseph, by contrast, boasts of his strength in keeping the church together, a statement that focuses on his strength, not his weakness as Paul does.

By: Thaddeus

Thaddeus — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 06:14:04 +0000

Rich, I responded to your first quote when you mentioned it below another article.

By: Thaddeus

Thaddeus — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 06:01:31 +0000

It would be a shame if someone were to read those quotes out of context and without reading the other 99.9% of things Joseph Smith said. Might give them a skewed impression of the man! Take a look at these explanations: No man ... will ever enter into the celestial kingdom ... without the consent of Joseph Smith? Did Joseph Boast of Keeping the Church Intact? Joseph Smith's History

By: Rich

Rich — Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:34:18 +0000

I was just thinking….so in the end of John 14 Jesus is talking about the Councelor (The Holy Spirit) will come after and teach you all things and reminding you of everything I have said.

From this, coupled with what Joseph Smith has said, it would appear he thought he was the Councelor or Holy Spirit. How else could you put yourself on that level when Jesus clearly states no one else is? In fact in the next verses state that I am going to the Father for he is greater than I so, again, Joseph speaks out of line…….not to mention Ephesians…Ye are saved through faith, not of yourselves: It is a gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It appears that he is breaking all kinds of rules here….boasting of his works not to mention others now believe they can’t be in the presence of God without his approval? WOW!

Enough said!

By: Rich

Rich — Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:13:31 +0000

Thanks Cindy.
That’s exactly what I felt like he was saying which would be blasphemy, from what I see since John 14:6 reads “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.”

By: cindy

cindy — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 22:30:53 +0000

Ben,
Thank you for writing out your beliefs in such a clear and comprehensive manner. I have never really understood this clearly until I read it here in its entirety.

The sticking point for me in all of this is the manner in which you define the atonement. You said, “the atonement of Jesus Christ extends beyond the concept of forgiveness of sin. It extends into much holier spheres, allowing us to become fully developed, as the Father and Christ are, and allowing us to fulfill Christ’s commandment.” And the key phrase within that definition, the one that is at odds with the Christian view is, “allowing US to become fully developed, as the Father and Christ are, and allowing US to fulfill Christ’s commandment”. If we believe in Christ, can WE become a god and fulfill Christ’s commandment through OUR efforts?

Partnered with some other LDS scriptures, such as:

1 NEPHI 3:7: “…for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.”

and D&C 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

It seems as though the emphasis of the atonement as it is defined by you is on what WE do.

While I agree that total sanctification-being set apart from sin-is one of the promises of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ describes how HIS righteousness ensures this gift for us; God testifies that it is Christ who sanctifies, not us through our actions. The Christian view of sanctification is that we:

1. are seen by God as sanctified through Christ the moment we believe submit to His righteousness;
1 Corinthians 1:30: “But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (also Romans 10:3, Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.)

2. experience a practical, progressive sanctification as we continue to trust in the truth of His righteousness for our forgiveness while awaiting His return;
and the verses in John you mentioned: “And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth”

3. will be changed into His perfect likeness—holy, sanctified, and completely separated from the presence of evil when He returns.
“1Thessalonians 5:23: “The God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

By: cindy

cindy — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 21:56:10 +0000

Rich,

You asked “Who did Joseph Smith think he was to say that?” and “Is he putting himself on the same level as Jesus?” and since no one is answering you, I will share with you a troubling statement that Joseph made, that seems to confirm his belief that he was at least equal to Jesus if not higher, at least in his opinion, “I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I” (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

Brigham Young believed in the importance of Joseph too, as demonstrated in his writing, “no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh”

By: Ken

Ken — Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:06:55 +0000

Thank you for posting this. I had to repent after reading this because this has always been presented to me in a different light and reading your explanation floored me. Thank you thank you thank you!!

By: Kassie

Kassie — Thu, 12 May 2011 03:51:24 +0000

Great Clarification Ben! Thank you! One of the most beautiful teachings to me in the LDS church is that “Adam fell that we might have joy.” Didn’t seem too joyous to them in the short term when they were cast out of paradise, made to work the fields, deal with the pains of childbirth etc. But if they had NOT made the choice we would have no free agency-our greatest gift! Satan wanted us to be “robots” for lack of a better word. Forced to CTR whith no ability to say “No!” What a dismal world that would have been!
Another question re: similar topic. When Adam and Eve moved on, we believe that Eden will be fullfilled on the American Continent. this country has been blessed by God. for me, I believe this to be true. Where does that teaching come from? as you can tell from my comments, I am a life long member of the Church (BIC) and so are my 9 children! and husband converted in his late teens when his family converted. Is this a doctrine of the church, given to the world by one of the Prophets since JS or just a philosopy that has been developed over time? Thank you so much for your scriptural knowledge! I admire you a great deal (and all of you on this board!) So much intellect and so much faith here! when ever I sign on . the Holy Ghost can just be felt.

By: Rich

Rich — Wed, 11 May 2011 15:44:07 +0000

Joseph Smith said, “Would
to God I could tell you who I am. Would to God I could tell you what I
know. But you would call it blasphemy and there are men on this stand that
would want to take my life.”

I’ve been trying to get an answer of “Who did Joseph Smith think he
was to say that?”

Is he putting himself on the same level as Jesus?